I Don’t Hate Marketing

One of the jokes in my little universe is that “every time I hear the word ‘marketing’ I throw up a little in my mouth.” I’ve been joking about this long enough that it’s become conventional wisdom that I hate marketing. Yet, if you look at many of our successful investments, they are extraordinarily good at marketing and some people suggest we (Foundry Group, me) are also good at marketing.

Thirty minutes ago, Chris Moody – a long time friend and COO of Gnip – sent me an extremely thoughtful email titled “Food For Thought”. I read it, thought it was 100% correct, and asked if I could reblog it verbatim both as (a) an explanation of how I actually should / do think about marketing and (b) an example of how I learn through direct feedback.

Chris – thanks for taking the time to write this. You nailed it. The way I articulate how I think about marketing will be permanently different going forward.

At this point I’ve probably heard/read most of your basic philosophical points on the various aspects of building a successful business. I agree with most of them of course. However, there is one area where I’ve consistently felt that you have under represented your true feelings and it feels like your general input on the topic has been mostly nonconstructive. I’d like to try to help change that for the good of the broader entrepreneur community (and to make you look even smarter).

The topic is marketing. I have no doubt missed some brillant thoughts you’ve offered to the community and I’m sure you’ve provided countless pieces of good advice to individual entrepreneurs in one-on-one situations. But, the sound bite version I’ve heard from you on a few occasions goes something like this “I hate traditional marketing. Focus on building a great product or all the marketing in the world won’t matter.” When I think about the first time entrepreneur, this response feels particularly unhelpful. And, the second part of the quote could be applied to almost all aspects of a startup business including sales, finance, etc. If you don’t have a great product, none of the other shit matters.

And yet, when I see how Foundry Group approaches marketing and when I look across your portfolio companies, I see a very common thread around how you guys approach marketing. I would characterize the theme as “marketing through thought leadership.” In more basic terms it is expressing marketing ideas via “this is why we are doing what we are doing and why it is important” instead of “hey, look at me.” Have a new product feature? Sure blog about the feature, but spend way more time on why the feature is important to your overall purpose and beliefs.

To illustrate the point, I’ve recently talked to/interviewed a few current/former people from Rally and ReturnPath. When I ask them “what is the most significant thing you did from a marketing perspective to accelerate the business” the answer across the board has been “we focused on being a thought leader in our space.” As you well know that is the same approach we are taking at Gnip and I see it in many of your other portfolio companies too. Not sure it is always a conscience effort by the companies, but it seems to be pretty consistent across the portfolio..

When I think about FG itself I see tons of “marketing activity” but most of it could also be just be labeled: thought leadership. You sponsor conferences around topics that you care about. Your blog post are rich with “here’s why did it and why it matters” instead of “here’s what we did”. In fact, your whole theme based approach is really about thought leadership focused in a few areas. Foundry Group clearly believes that startups have the power to change the world. You guys spend countless time and effort expressing your opinions on this topic. You write books to support your beliefs. If you only talked about what you do with your startups “we invested in x, we sold y”, the conversation would be short and have a limited audience. Instead, you talk about what you believe and why startups matter. As a result, you have built a real following around people that care about the topic.

If I were going to create the Brad Feld sound bite for Marketing it would go something like this “Don’t do marketing. Focus on becoming a thought leader in your space. Talk everyday with your customers, perspective customers, partners, and the world about why you do what you do and why you think it is important. The reality is you can only talk about what you do one or two times before people think ‘got it’ and stop listening. But, if you talk about what you believe and point to countless examples that exemplify your beliefs , you can build real engagement with people who care/believe the same things.”

Not trying to put words in your mouth. Just saying that the actions that I see don’t match the words that I hear and I think there is easy opportunity to change that for the better.

  • Wow, I totally agree Chris (and Brad). I’ve thought the exact same thing about Brad and Foundry. How could you possibly believe Brad hates marketing but then creates the I’m a VC video! Well said. I think this will really help entrepreneurs just grasping the fundamentals of marketing. They might not be able to read between the lines like Chris has done. And as a side note, while not new, the thought leadership approach to marketing is definitely the right way to grow most companies nowadays.

  • love it.  so happy to think of myself as a thought leader…not a marketer.  calling my mom and dad now.

  • Very interesting, thoughtful post – this definition of ‘marketing’ is not necessarily best done by traditional marketERs. The job of the marketing department is certainly to figure out the communication, distribution, syndication, amplification etc… strategies for the thought leadership, but the message itself must originate from the visionaries & the founders.

  • Having a great product/service is important, but it is not everything. Promotion is all about the placebo effect. It creates an intangible value, which justifies charging higher price and actually improves  customers’ experience. Fact – people report that their wine tastes much better if they know that it is expensive. Our expectations define our experience in a big way.

    Thought leaders (innovators) are an essential brink in the system, but they are not the tipping point that make an idea viral. The most important element is the opinion leader – the guy with the social network and influence; the guy who could spread the message and people will listen; the one who holds the key to the idea distribution channel. 

  • Larry McKeogh

    Interesting comments by Chris.  I’m glad they will help change how you think about marketing going forward.  I had heard similar commentary about Product Management but wanted to get the actual take from you.  This was part of the motivation behind the short interview last month.  http://bit.ly/qZONx9  To clear up any confusion related to this similar role. It has certainly helped and elicited some good feedback BTW.

    If you’d really like to set the record straight and impart some though leadership on the topic to 300 such people, Rocky Mountain ProductCamp is happening on October 29th.  Interested in giving a keynote on the topic?

    • When / when – what time?

      • Larry McKeogh

        Saturday, October 29th.  9:00 – 9:45 AM @ the Tivoli in Denver – Turnhalle auditorium specifically

        • Can’t – Amy is getting back the night before and won’t want me to split early on Saturday.

  • JamesHRH

    Bit of a long post here – apologies in advance.

    It is amazing how marketing is so broadly and deeply confused in the tech space.Marketing is properly called positioning, given that name by Jack Trout and Al Ries in the book of the same name (written in early 1970’s). They wrote a seminal book in the late ’70’s called The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing. All tech marketing gurus, including Geoffrey Moore & Seth (knowingly or not) base their work on these principles.

    Positioning a brand (or company) is an exercise in creating a promise. That promise is based on the expectation that is created (by any method) whenever a customer forms a thought about your company (or brand).When the reality of a consumer experience occurs, the experience either meets/exceeds the expectation or does not meet expectations. The brand is strengthened in the former, weakened in the latter.

    So , all successful founders identify a position of value to the market and then deliver to the expectation that position requires. Some start with the position they want to occupy (top down) and others can evolve a position from an intuitively sensed need (bottom up) that becomes an important area.

    A founder does not need to be able to communicate well, if the product / service fills a strongly needed position in a growing market (see bottom up need finder above, or think 1985 Bill Gates.) That does not mean that the founder is not a great marketer – filling a need with an offering is the definition of great marketing.
    A founder who can communicate a position that should exist needs to be disciplined, focused and grounded (see top down experience based above or think ‘1985 Steve Jobs, meet 2005 Steve Jobs.’). Classically, people think of Apple’s ‘1984’ ad as great marketing; it wasn’t. ‘Mac v. PC’ ads; great marketing.
    In the end, the real key is an alignment between the market need, the overall market development stage, the culture required to fill the next need and the personality of the founder(s). When that clicks together, things go well, because the founder is not ‘trying to market something’; they are just doing what they believe is the right thing to do.
    Most founders who are successful have a strong fit between their business culture. market opportunity and their personality / philosophy. I have always suspected that this occurs unconsciously.

    • Well said. I agree that the tech industry is broadly / deeply confused about marketing. That’s part of why I’ve taken the provocative position about it. Traditional tech marketing communication, advertising, and promotion have been historically successful tactics, but like many things that fall under the broad category of marketing has been extraordinarily overused and ineffective (wasteful) – especially if you sum all of the activities.

      Chris is pointing out to me that I should be clearer about what I mean and by simply saying “marketing sucks” I’m not really being helpful (or thoughtful), nor am I expressing what I actually mean / say / do via my actual actions. And he’s totally correct in this criticism of me.

      • JamesHRH

        That last line is an impressive statement, although I am sure you don’t think so.

        My comment is an abridged version of an even longer comment from AVC – the infamous “marketing is for sucky products’ post!

        I think the issue is that the heart of great marketing is more of a discipline than a science. You cannot know, for sure, if you are stating the need and the corresponding solution effectively, until it works. And, in many cases, you don’t get a second chance (mess up the launch and its over).

        MarComm people are a big part of the problem, too. They all want to be ‘strategic'(that’s where the $$$ is) & they get a huge personal ego boost out of having the CEO hang on their every word.

        But, unless they have sales background, MarComm people tend to have very little grounding in the reality of business (and even less in the funnel). They have ideas, but they don’t have the commitment to make sure those ideas are grounded in reality. Ungrounded ideas are expensive, to say the least.

        The key to insight is to be holistic – what does the market offer, what would consumers actually do and what would it actually take to make them do it. That’s CEO / ProdMgmt territory and bolting on an outside wizard is very unlikely to work.

        Brand, Strategy and Marketing are in the Bastardized Business Word Hall of Fame, for sure.

        • Re: “although I am sure you don’t think so.” – Why? I wouldn’t say it if I didn’t mean it.

          Re: the strategic vs. tactical discussion – totally agree. Many classical marketing people get sucked into the ego vortex (e.g. “personal ego boost out of having the CEO hang on their every word”) and forget what the actual goal is!

          • JamesHRH

            Your reply proves my point, I think. I will go w ”transparent communication of need for self improvement is not part of the traditional VC playbook’ as my answer to Why that is Impressive 😉

          • You may have said it even though you didn’t mean it because you were confused – very likely a combination of excessive marathon training and the ego inflation attendant upon becoming a rap star.

      • Pete Griffiths

        IMHO a great deal of the confusion on the role of marketing stems from a confusing the kinds of marketing processes that are ‘standard’ for established ongoing companies and the processes required of startups. In this context the work of Steve Blanks and Eric Ries for example is very relevant.  A startup that is struggling to discover a sustainable business model through validated learning is in a totally different position from Proctor and Gamble launching a product in one of their established categories. The danger is that the kind of processes that are appropriate for the latter become fetishized and interpreted as what ‘marketing’ is.  The reason that ‘product’ is so key a concept for a startup is not to exalt the role of technology and engineering and to belittle marketing but precisely because it is only by iterating the product (in the most comprehensive sense ie the full customer offering, value proposition…) that there can be validated learning ie validated by customer interaction.  I believe it is this perspective that informs the thinking of people who have early stage experience and it is the established company perspective that results in people being offended by the way such early stage players sometimes talk about marketing. That is why notions of MVP and ‘product market fit’ are so important for early stage companies and why it can be dangerous to prematurely hire ‘marketing’professionals.   (Steve Blank deals with the latter brilliantly in ‘4 Steps to the Epiphany)  But I don’t think any early stage players believe that even the most traditional of marketing is without value or that it doesn’t have an increasingly important role to play as a company finds product market fit, scales and matures.

        • JamesHRH

          V true Pete. Building a market is not at all like maintaining one.

          P&G is a great example. About 10 years ago, they gave up on innovation & started partnering w new product developers. In essence, saying ‘we will take you global’.

          Brands are built thru product innovation, PR & word of mouth ( good positioning accelerates this process ). Brands are maintained thru product consistency, ads & sponsorships.

          Hiring someone who is good at the latter, to do the former, isn’t going to work.

          • I’m not even just talking about maintaining a market.  P&G and 3M for example introduce a lot of new products.  But many of those products are product line extension.  Such products do not have the same high degree of uncertainty that characterizes a startup.  For example, if P&G introduces a new detergent they know a great deal about how the business model the day they start thinking about the new product e.g. likely pricing, promotion, distribution channels…  So this is a new product, I wouldn’t call this just maintaining a market, but there isn’t the characteristic uncertainty.  And because there are many knowns a good deal of their tried and tested marketing techniques are relevant to the new venture.

            I find it scary when people talk about brands in the context of a startup. IMHO it is way premature.

          • JamesHRH

            Semantics at play here. I am a Trout & Ries guy ( see other comment ) & not a line extension fan. I would see line extension = maintaining brand though.

            The days of owning 7 of the top 9 brands are gone for P&G. Retail doesn’ have the shelf space anymore. They needed to develop new categories to grow, found they were not good at it, so they partnered ( Swiffer is not an in-house product & is one of the major growth categories in home care consumables, for example ).

            Book by UofT Biz School dean ( Roger Martin ) called The Opposable Mind is mostly about P&G CEO ( Lafley ) who turned them around, FYI.

          • A lot of confusions do indeed arise from semantic problems.  In the startup world I feel that the work of Steve, Eric and others has really helped us by providing not just a new model but an associated powerful new vocabulary.

            Thanks for the reference re. P&G

  • That was very thought through feedback! 🙂

  • Sarah Welle

    I like it.  Very interesting & thoughtful. 

  • Long story short, people don’t buy what you do, they buy why you do it.  Great Post, Brad!

    • Maybe one step further makes even more sense… People buy if it solves _their_ problem/meets _their_ need.  We delude ourselves when the focus is on our product or our purpose.

  • Jacob Nelson

    When I hear the term “thought leader” I throw up in my mouth a little bit. Same for “marketing” and especially “social media strategist”. Almost as bad as “twitter coach”. Someone has a brown nose 🙂

    • Jacob – I totally disagree with you. Chris actually thought he was going to piss me off when he sent me this email. So it’s the opposite of him trying to brown nose me (plus, as anyone who knows me knows, the “brown nose approach” is totally pointless with me.

    • JamesHRH

      Thought leader is one of those terms that’s only true when the person is told they are a thought leader…….not when they tell others. Its an easy test Jacob.

  • Justin Raddatz

    Like it.  Resonates deeply with Simon Sinek’s “Start with Why.” 

    People don’t buy what you do, they buy why you do it.  Best lesson I learned in B school.

    • JamesHRH

      Pretty good one line summary.

      I would say Why & How, not What, but that’s quibbling!

  • and i do hate!

  • Jacque Swartz

    I’m sorry, but this is blatant engineering snobbery. The best technology doesn’t win, the technology that is adopted by the most customers does. The tech industry is littered with the carcasses of companies who created great technologies that were beaten by companies with marginal and inferior technology because the survivors attracted more customers. I won’t and should not have to bore you with a history lesson about this here.

    Every blog published, event sponsored or attended and book published is fundamental marketing. A majority of the non-sales meetings with people outside your company can be considered marketing or business development. From a business perspective, the only value of social media is its marketing potential. Sorry to be so blunt.

    • Re: best technology wins – that’s not what Chris (or I) say. Note that Chris specifically refers to “product.” The product is what customers adopt, and the “product” encompasses many things beyond technology. In my world, the “product” is the entire set of activities that the customer is interacting with. Chris makes the very important point that this includes all of the “marketing” activities.

      Re: the only value of social media is its marketing potential: I couldn’t disagree with you more. Marketing is one of the values of social media, but to say it is the only one is nonsensical to me.

  • Brad, great read, I
    would like to add though – How do you become the Thought-Leader in Your

    My 2 cents to becoming a thought-leader is an approach
    I call “Getting In & Staying On the Mind of Your Customers”
    and without boring any one further, the complete piece can be found here: http://www.crossnetpoints.com and with other supporting articles.
    Brad, great read, I
    would like to add though – How do you become the Thought-Leader in Your

    My 2 cents to becoming a thought-leader is an approach
    I call “Getting In & Staying On the Mind of Your Customers”
    and without boring any one further, the complete piece can be found here: http://www.crossnetpoints.com and with other supporting articles.

  • Tom Cross

    my apologies for the multiple-posts, I get an error ever time I “Post as” as the system says there is an error with Twitter.

  • Tom Cross

    no the post is complete gone – !

    Brad, great read, I would like to add though – How does one become the Thought-Leader in Your Industry?

    My 2 cents to becoming a thought-leader is an approach I call “Getting In & Staying On the Mind of Your Customers” and without boring any one further, the complete piece can be found here: http://www.crossnetpoints.com and with other supporting articles.

  • As several commenters have pointed out, there is a lot of confusion about what marketing really is.

    There are countless examples of sleazy, underhand tactics to get money quick that detractors think of marketing: SPAM, unsolicited calls, junk mail, exaggerated claims, misleading small print…

    The best marketing supports long term value for customers, including listening, thought leadership, community, feedback into products, helping customer be more successful.

    I completely agree with the overall message marketing is not a dirty word [related post http://smartsoftwaremarketing.co.uk/2011/marketing-is-not-a-dirty-word/ ]

  • Anonymous

    Interesting debate.

    Our company, Slice of Lime, created various incarnations of the Rally, Return Path, and Foundry Group websites. In all of those cases, “thought leadership” proved to be the best path to achieve the results that they wanted. The decision to create a “thought leadership” website isn’t something we apply to every project, though. We first look at the business goals, target audience, and desired results.

    In the case of Rally, Return Path, and Foundry Group, we felt that highlighting blog posts, whitepapers, and so on (presuming that someone is actively creating this content on their end) would be a great way to engage with their target audiences and to position them as best in their industry.

    Not all clients require that strategy, however. For some startups, product demos, video content, or a strong focus on social engagement will be a better path. Other times, simply focusing on amazing customer support will be what acts as your startup’s initial “online marketing plan.”

    As a company that focuses on marketing sites and user interface design, our experience is that there isn’t one tidy definition on how best to market your business online. While there’s definitely best practices out there, marketing decisions should be treated on a case-by-case bases, targeted at your business goals, short term goals, target audience, and desired results.

    With that understanding, we think that marketing it is immensely important to the success of your business.

  • Chris Sciora


    “If you don’t have a great product, none of the other shit matters.”

    You can’t seriously believe this. There are countless highly profitable companies selling complete shit. Some of them continue that business model for generations while ohers actually use profits to further improve the product and the cycle continues. It generally takes YEARS to create a great product since it takes that long to get enough useful market feedback from real customers and iterate the design. Having a great product is certainly not a requirement of having a successful company.

    The “Don’t market, act as thought leader” idea reminds me of an old sales story with two guys commiserating back in the office after a long day in the field. One guy asks “How did your day go?”, the other replies “Great. I met with a lot of people and had some really great conversations!!!”. First guys responds: “Yeah, I didn’t sell anything either.”

    It’s much easier to sell what people want to buy than convince them why you’re right.

    That’s marketing in a nutshell: figure it out and package it back in their own words.

    ~ Chris

    • Having sold a lot of different products (and services) in my life, the only businesses I care about at this point are companies that create amazing products. I define the product as the full customer experience, not just the thing the customer pays for at the point of purchase.

      Sure – there are many companies in the world with crappy products and services that make a profit and are around for a long time. I’m just not interested in being an investor in them – I don’t think this is a compelling way to create a company from scratch, nor do I think it’s a way to create outsized value over the long run.

  • David Crankshaw

    Another way to think about why “marketing through thought leadership” is more effective than “hey, look at me” is that it meets the criteria of Aristotle’s three ways to persuasively appeal to others: argument by character, argument by logic, and argument by emotion. 

    Argument by character (ethos) includes the aspects of virtue, practical wisdom and disinterest. When you demonstrate your belief that “startups have the power to change the world” you show that you share the same values (virtues) with the startups you work with. Your conferences, books, and conversations prove to them that you have experience (practical wisdom) in your domain. And when you share your knowledge and experience so freely, your audience can see your disinterest, that you are not just in it for your own gain, that you genuinely want to help them move forward on their journey. When you appeal to your character your audience perceives you as a trustworthy leader and will let you influence them with your ideas.

    Argument by logic (logos) always starts with where the audience is, with commonplace beliefs they already hold. Your audience of entrepreneurs believes that “startups matter.” They find you persuasive because you start your conversations from this position and then using various logical arguments to bring them to the specific choice or decision you are recommending. 

    Argument by emotion (pathos) changes the mood of your audience to make them more receptive to your logic and more willing to make an emotional commitment to your goal. Though emotions like anger and humor are persuasive, they are short-lived. The most powerful emotion is to create a sense of group identity and belief. Entrepreneurs lead challenging lives as they put their ideas to the test in the marketplace. Your activities at Foundry make them feel part of a larger group that is doing important work. When you create this feeling among entrepreneurs they become more receptive to your ideas; they respond to you as a role model. 

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  • why isn’t Kleiner perkins or John doerr not doing any thought leadership online ?

    • I have no idea. You’d have to ask him.

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  • thought leadership – great thing to achieve, but not the easiest way of marketing…maybe impossible if you sell everyday products. however, expressing your opinion surely helps to connect to your customers

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  • I’ve been struggling to write for our blog for weeks now (ok months, but I’m too embarrassed to say that out loud so I’ll say it in parenthesis). I always feel like I have something to say but I know everything has been said a million times and I don’t see what makes me special enough to talk about any of it. But after reading this post I just decided to start writing about who we are. I got a post done and it feels great. I also think it adds value to our site because it tells who we are and doesn’t brag about what we do. Whatever the true value of the post might be is irrelevant to me right now. I’m just freakin’ happy I got something out there and I’m so grateful you helped me do it. It’s like my writer’s block has been lifted and I’ve broken through. I finally have ideas and a small que of posts to refine for later. I’ll definitely be back to your blog. Thank you!

    • Awesome. Just write – it feels good.

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