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Grinfucking

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I first heard the word “grinfucker” a decade or so ago from a close friend who was a former investment banker. He said, in response to a meeting we were in with a person who was very polite and charming “he’s such a grinfucker.” I loved the word and, as I found out later, it described the person perfectly.

I had an encounter with someone on Friday that made me think to myself “that person is a grinfucker” and I vaguely remembered a post on the web from someone about grinfuckers. A quick Google search generated a post from Mark Suster titled Don’t be a Grin Fucker. It’s excellent - go read it – this blog post will wait patiently for you to come back.

I was at dinner mid-week with another friend talking about a bunch of stuff. During that dinner we started talking about SOPA/PIPA. He has another friend who is one of the SOPA/PIPA advocates. He told me what the person said about it, which was basically “the tech industry misunderstands what we are trying to do – it’s only about foreign websites – there is nothing bad in the bills.” I responded to my friend that this person was lying. We talked about that for a while. As I reflect on the conversation, it wasn’t simply that the pro-SOPA/PIPA person was lying, he was actually grinfucking our mutual friend. Which, ironically given the specific context, might even be worse than lying.

I try to live my life where I always say 100% what is on my mind. I rarely hold back and, although I try to be polite about it, I’m sure I piss plenty of people off. But I’d rather annoy and piss them off than grinfuck them. And I’d much rather someone be brutally honest with me about whatever they think, especially if they disagree with me or think I’m doing something stupid, since that information is so much more valuable to me than a disingenuous good vibe.

I’ve started doing something new at the end of most of my public talks. I have always ended by giving out my email address and encouraging people to reach out directly if there is anything they want to discuss. But I’ve added on the following:

If I said anything you disagree with, think was confusing, stupid, or just plain wrong, please tell me. I won’t take offense – don’t sugar coat it – just tell me. That’s the best way for me to learn and get smarter.

I suppose I could add “please don’t grinfuck me by saying how wonderful the talk was as you think in the back of your mind ‘wow – Feld is a real moron – he totally missed the point on the blah thing.’”

I encourage everyone to chew on this. Honest, direct, and clear debate is so much more powerful than bullshit. We are living in a very complex era and the information we are trying to process is extremely confusing and contradictory. If you like or respect someone, don’t grinfuck them. And if you don’t like or respect them, don’t grinfuck them – tell them why.

February 4th, 2012 Categories: Pet Peeves Tags: grinfucking, lying, Pet Peeves, things i hate

Anonymous

” I try to live my life where I always say 100% what is on my mind. I rarely hold back and, although I try to be polite about it, I’m sure I piss plenty of people off.”
I try to do the same…although some times I do hold off for a variety or reasons. I will check out the link to Mark’s post and try to continue to live w/ saying 100% of whats on my mind.

Thanks as always for sharing
- http://www.feld.com bfeld
  
  You are welcome. I’m sure I don’t get to 100% either – but I try.
  - Anonymous
    
    Thanks for sharing/tweeting the Matt Blumberg’s post about great Boards last night – I very much enjoyed scanning the post.
    - posted via Engagio
http://freepository.com John Minnihan

Yep. Cliches aside, there’s just no [long-term] upside to saying anything that isn’t truthful.*

* I’m purposely avoiding cases of ‘do I look fat in this [whatever]‘ + ‘daddy, is Santa Claus real’ as asked by a four year old.
- http://hegranes.com/ jonathan hegranes
  
  But what happens when you can’t avoid the ‘do I look fat…’ question? Do you try to find a middle ground, or stick to your guns to no grinfucking?
  - James Mitchell
    
    The question to ask is not, “Will I feel better about myself if I speak my mind?” The question to ask is, “How will speaking the truth affect the other person? If I tell them the truth, will it benefit them?”
    
    If she is wearing a dress that she should not be wearing, you could say something like, “You look great in everything, you are the most beautiful girl in the world. But I myself am really partial to your green dress, which makes you the most beautiful girl in the universe.”
  - http://freepository.com John Minnihan
    
    I’m a ‘black + white’ kinda guy in almost everything I do, but that’s an exception. There’s simply nothing to be gained by telling the unvarnished truth in a case like this if all it does is hurt someone’s feeling.
http://barkles.com/diesellaws Diesel Laws

You hit the nail on the head!

To take honest feedback and turn it around to become a better person – yep, that’s the way. We’re trying to encourage that as much as possible over at Barkles.com. It’s much better to live your life hearing, reading and sharing honest opinions than just becoming another Grinfucker.
James Mitchell

“I try to live my life where I always say 100% what is on my mind.”

This is not a good way to live. You must always consider the context and who the audience is.

To launch a successful startup, you must have many traits. One of them, an absolute deal breaker, is that you have to be reasonably smart. If you are not, the game is over.

I have a friend who really wants to start a successful company. Unfortunately, he is not very smart. I have not said, “John, I am sorry, you have a two digit IQ, it’s just not going to happen.” I have actively tried to discourage him from starting a company by telling him that working for a large company is not so bad, there is job security, etc. But telling him what I am thinking would just hurt his feelings. I can accomplish the same goal without hurting his feelings.

So it’s not an absolute rule. But I totally agree we have far too much grinfucking in the world. There are entire countries, such as Japan, where apparently almost no one speaks his mind.
- Kreigh Williams
  
  I’m not so sure a high IQ is required to start a successful business. I believe there are several things that are required but a high IQ is not one of them. Simply because an IQ doesn’t measure common sense, it doesn’t take into account instinct, passion, persistence, drive. Those are things that an entrepreneur must have. Granted they can’t be complete idiots but they do not have to be a “genius.” Just my thoughts.
  - FAKE GRIMLOCK
    
    ALL EVIDENCE INDICATE STUPID PEOPLE VERY GOOD AT START BUSINESS. ALSO GOOD AT SUCCEED WITH IT.
- http://www.onetruefan.com Eric Marcoullier
  
  James — “you’re not smart enough to do a startup” is a value judgement. Who knows what the guy is really capable of?
  
  I spent years as “the guy who tells it like it really is.” I was the one who wasn’t afraid to say why something was a bad idea. And at the end of it I realized I was a jerk, and I was giving myself way to much credit about what I knew.
  
  These days, I try to focus on challenges and goals. “Have you thought about X — it seems like that might come into play as you move forward.” And “From my experience, investors (or partners, or customers) may ask you about Y.”
  
  I’m scheduled to meet with a company in next week that is launching a product that I think is a bad idea. I’ll tell them what I know about similar product launches in previous years and suggest they figure out what went wrong. But I won’t tell them that it’s a bad idea. I’m not omniscient enough to know that for sure. As Brad has often said to me, “this is only data, not truth.”
  - http://freepository.com John Minnihan
    
    It’s always interesting to see/hear folks I know self-evaluate.
    
    Back in ’99-’01, when I did my first startup (failed 8 days from from the closing date on the $4MM a round – ouch. another story, another day), I was Mr. Asshole. Easy to see now, not so easy to see then.
  - James Mitchell
    
    ”James — “you’re not smart enough to do a startup” is a value judgement. Who knows what the guy is really capable of?”
    
    Yes you are right. Every person in America has the smarts to start a company. Everyone of them should be encouraged to quit their secure job and take the risk. “Yes, Tom, I know you are dumb as a rock, you don’t work very hard, you have no follow through, you can’t add 2 and 2, you can’t even spell the word business. You should quit your tenured job at the U.S. Post Office, where you only have to work 35 hours a week, you will never be fired, and you are building up a great pension, and start a company that will go head to head with Google.”
    
    I hope you know I am kidding. A lot of people just are not very smart, and if you are talking about a tech startup, being smart is one of the must haves, rather than a nice to have.
    
    As for bad startup ideas, I have heard a billion of them. You owe it to them to tell them you think it is a bad idea. “You guys are really talented, I hate to see you waste your talents on an idea that will almost certainly not work.” Otherwise, you are grinfucking them.
    - http://www.onetruefan.com Eric Marcoullier
      
      I was the cofounder of IGN.com (the largest videogames site on the web). I made videogames for the PS2, Xbox and PC for more than half a decade. I’d say I know something about videogames.
      
      Yet I turned down an offer to be employee #3 and the VP of Product at Zynga because I thought it was a stupid idea.
      
      I’ve learned that when I feel an idea is stupid, it’s usually because of a failure of my own imagination.
      
      As a heads up, this will be my last post in this thread, though I’ll read anything else you post.
      - James Mitchell
        
        Whether one should join a startup as employee no. 3 is almost always a judgment call. A judgment call is one in which smart people can reasonably disagree. I don’t view your not joining Zynga as a dumb mistake, but rather a judgment call that in retrospect turned out to be wrong.
        
        That is different from just a dumb decision.
- http://www.feld.com bfeld
  
  I think delivery of honest feedback matters a lot. You can deliver honest feedback without being an asshole. You can consider who else is in the room, how and when you give the feedback, and whether you offer it up as “a truth”, “simple data”, “your opinion”, or something else.
  
  I recognize the nuance between the notion of being 100% honest and always saying 100% of what is on my mind. I try to do both when I give people feedback – and I think they reinforce each other. But I’m sure there are cases where I don’t say 100% of what’s on my mind because I wasn’t asked for feedback.
Dain Carver

“I try to live my life where I always say 100% what is on my mind. I
rarely hold back and, although I try to be polite about it, I’m sure I
piss plenty of people off.”

Thanks Brad now my wife wont talk to me! HAHAHA! Just kidding, but definitely valuable advice. I have been grinfucked plenty of times when I worked at the I-Banks. The worst is when they have seniority and you would have to just sit there and take it on the chin because that world was what they made of it. So happy I am not there now!! Keep posting we need more ppl like you.
Anonymous

i actually woke up this morning and I couldn’t stop thinking about how evil “sugarcoating” is when trying to build great software – from peers, investors, users and customers. then I read this post a few minutes later, and it holds true. blog post of my own coming on grinfucking as it relates to software development.
- http://fullcontact.com/ Bart Lorang
  
  Don’t get grinfucked by your users: http://fullcontact.com/2012/02/04/dont-get-grinfucked-by-your-users/
http://www.alearningaday.com Rohan

Duderino.. good stuff! Keep ‘em coming..
http://twitter.com/asherbearman Asher Bearman

Nailed it – this is why you’re one of the best. I too love that Suster post and struggle with being “too honest”, but I wish there were more of us.
http://www.samedayphysical.com/ Richard Weisberger

What are you thoughts on something I refer to as clapfucking? We have all been there. We are at a conference where somebody gives a presentation and it is just not commensurate in scope with the knowledge of the audience. We clap (which i suppose is for the effort) . Just once I would love for someone to give constructive criticism to the speaker, the same type of criticism you might give someone who is pitching a series A round, that challenges the speaker on the weakness of his remarks. Thougts? Or am I off on this one?
- http://www.feld.com bfeld
  
  That’s what I ask for at the end of my talks. Sometimes people will offer it in public, usually they are more comfortable offering it in private. I’m happy to hear it either way.
  
  I don’t know if I clapfuck. I’ll have to pay more attention – I probably do reflexively out of politeness in big audiences but never in small audiences.
Anonymous

Hmmm… I’m with James on this one, Brad. Yes, it’s good to adopt an authenticity ethos and there are ways of delivering difficult messages without reducing the recipient to ash. In other words, there is honest and there is brutally honest. My feeling is there is too much passive-aggressive behavior being played out in the name of being real. So here’s my question: Is it better to feel good about oneself for speaking “your mind” than being concerned with that hapless human being you’ve just truthfucked?

PS If you’ve ever read the Proust Questionnaire in Vanity Fair, the most common answer to the question “On what occasion do you lie?” is “To avoid hurting or embarrassing someone.” There’s enough shame in the world.
- James Mitchell
  
  Truthfucked, that’s great.
- http://www.feld.com bfeld
  
  I think you can deliver honest feedback without hurting someone. In many cases, you hurt them more, and over a longer term, if you don’t give them honest feedback. Delivery matters a lot – I’m not arguing that my brutal honesty is delivered in a meanspirited way. In my experience, most people value honest feedback but don’t appreciate gratuitously hostile or meanspirited feedback.
  - Anonymous
    
    “Delivery matters a lot.” Agreed. So does intention.
    
    I’m glad you made the clarification. Just as people have different learning and communication styles, they also have different receptivity styles. If the intention is well-meaning, then it is a conversation and the person on the receiving end deserves to be taken into consideration. It isn’t really about how honest or direct one is as much as what message will have the most positive impact for this person.
    
    And by the way there are so many cultural influences at play too… some of the comments here put me in mind of the Venus-Mars Female-Male communication gap. The use and abuse of power / privilege can also be disguised as “being brutally honest.”
- http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000279212956 Johnny Blade
  
  Truth fucked… lol… thats funny… whats next reality raped? My position is if you are too frail to withstand another person’s opinion, then don’t engage them. There is a huge difference between being offended and someone being offensive.
  - FAKE GRIMLOCK
    
    WORLD IS FULL OF TRUTH. IF YOU NOT HANDLE THAT, STAY OUT OF WORLD.
  - James Mitchell
    
    Johnny, I think it depends on where you are engaging. If you are a soldier in Afghanistan, then you should be prepared to be shot at. If you are a prominent VC blogger, you should be prepared for some tough comments. Same with starting a company — if you do not have a thick skin, don’t try to start a company.
    
    But there are lots of other environments where it is not assumed that you are super tough. I think everyone would agree that one has to consider the environment, the context, the recipient of one’s pearls of wisdom, cultural factors (someone like me, in Japan they would and would probably ban me from their country), and power relationships. This is why I think Brad’s rule should be taken with a grain of salt.
http://www.onetruefan.com Eric Marcoullier

Will enjoy adding this to my daily vocabulary.

If you’ve got a few minutes, there a little bit of truth and a lot of humor in this article: http://www.esquire.com/features/honesty0707
- Derek Scruggs
  
  Ha, you beat me to it! I was going to post the same link.
Clint Sharp

Brad, thanks so much for introducing me to this term. I’ve been living for the last several years in a middle management role at a tier 2 wireless carrier. We are not being very successful, and while many of us seem to understand and commiserate on why our performance is so poor, hardly anyone will give honest feedback. I always strive to be honest in meetings even though that means people think I’m not politically correct, but without a culture of honesty from the top I believe it’s hard for businesses to make true corrective change.

We have an army of Deloitte, Accenture, McKinsey, IBM, etc, consultants running around gathering feedback from individual contributors and middle management to give to senior leadership. We could be saving our selves millions of dollars by simply listening to the people who are already here. Instead, I’ve had the personal experience of being grinfucked by numerous members of the C-suite. Oh well, I suppose that’s why I’m leaving and moving to California to work for a technology company who hopefully will not suffer from these symptoms.
- FAKE GRIMLOCK
  
  WHOLE POINT OF CONSULTANTS IS SPEND LOTS OF MONEY TO AVOID FIX RIGHT WAY FOR LESS MONEY.
http://twitter.com/ScotchGuyDan Dan Bowen

So much of the insane political correctness of our society has made direct conversation taboo and grinfucking proper discourse. Perhaps if we stopped handing out trophies for participation and encouraged honest evaluation we may start to regain our competitive edge again.
http://roberthackerbooks.com/ Robert Hacker

I like the add on quote to the end of your contact info about sugar coating etc. Have just added it to all my presentations given that I also speak my mind. (with attribution)
http://twitter.com/cselland Chris Selland

There’s a time to couch things and a time to be direct and honest – but I fully agree that we all would benefit greatly from far less couching and far more honesty.

Could’ve titled this post ‘Politics’ and it would have meant essentially the same thing (although your title is definitely more catchy…)
http://yoavlurie.com/ Yoav Lurie

Totally agreed. It’s especially important in sales and fundraising. At @SimpleEnergy:twitter we have an expression: “get to ‘no.’” Time our most precious asset; we simply can’t afford to be strung along by someone being polite instead of giving us a hard “no.”

Grinfucking allows the GFer to feel like they’re not offending or to keep his options open; but, in fact, it wastes everyone’s time. Much better to be candid.
http://hdemott.wordpress.com Harry DeMott

Couldn’t agree more.
So much so it inspired me to write a post on just why you are right – but people won’t stop this behavior.
http://www.hdemott.com/blog/2012/2/4/why-most-people-are-grinfuckers-the-flipside-of-brad-felds-p.html
http://twitter.com/JessiDarko Jessica Darko

Some disproportionate percent of the reason I don’t want to have anything to do with venture capital for my new venture is the damage that grinfucking does. I’ve been thru too many situations where a founder of a company is lead on by VC firms for months on end, with the idea that they’re going to invest when in reality they never were going to invest. I’ve seen companies shut down profitable consulting units because VCs said they “needed to see that you were focused before we invest”.

You could say that grinfucking has left me so disgusted with the VC industry that I designed my companies business model with the intention of never having to put up with it.
- James Mitchell
  
  Jessica, there are thousands of reasons why it makes sense to have a business model which does not require outside investors. Grinfucking is just one of them.
  
  As outside investors go, the better VCs are usually better than a lot of the other investor types. I am certain that neither Brad nor Mark Suster will grinfuck you.
http://www.twitter.com/sugdaddy Michael Shafrir

I worked for a guy for about 4 months who had a lot of shortcomings and soon after left the company. But there was one moment that still sticks with me. I was meeting with him and we were talking about some numbers. I was sugarcoating things so I could get on to something more interesting (to me). He looked me straight in the eye and said “stop grinfucking me.” I’ll never forget that and think about it often, whether I’m giving or getting feedback.
Anonymous

Ha! I was reading about Facebook’s “social mission” right after seeing this and thinking, now that is the definition of grinfucking.

Or maybe I so totally misunderstand what they are trying to do there… privatize the information about every little thing I do, so a wedding photographer can reach me when I get engaged, a florist can reach my friends when I die… etc. Social mission my a*** lol.
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http://engag.io/ William Mougayar

wow, that’s the 2nd f* word in a week. You are on f** fire.
Isn’t grinfucking standard in politics? Speaking from both sides of their mouth is what most politicians learn to do quite well.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000279212956 Johnny Blade

This is hardly a new phenomenon and has been practiced by everyone from the lowly tavern girl to kings and popes. Crack open Hamlet one day and take count… lol
FAKE GRIMLOCK

TELL TRUTH. DEMAND TRUTH TOLD. IT ONLY WAY ITERATE TO AWESOME.
http://donaldryan.net/ DonRyan

After reading the original post by Mark some time ago we introduced “grinfucker” into the verbage of our firm. Once you know what it is, it’s easy to spot and call out. Radical truth, while painful, is a much better way.
Anonymous

new term for me, thanks! you helped me tweak http://academy.justjobs.com/be-precise-be-specific-and-be-clear
Bradbernthal

Moliere’s Alceste and Ibsen’s Dr. Stockman come to mind as favorite literary characters who embraced brutal honesty. Trick is to somehow manage it an a way that triggers a useful dialectic, rather than instant antagonism. Your invitation to disagree helps catalyze the productive form of interaction.
http://thenextelement.wordpress.com/ Laura Strong

Your post made me think of a recent Dilbert that highlights the need for self reflection prior to behavior changing http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2012-01-05/
Anonymous

Couldn’t agree more on this. We are in a situation where a partner has been lying to our face for months, and it is absolutely maddening.
Donald Hogan

Grinfucking = being 2-faced in business.
Scotty Steele

Sounds like grin fucking is an inability to be assertive – as is being passive and/or aggressive.
http://www.kickofflabs.com/ Josh Ledgard

Grinfucking is what makes is hard to get real feedback on Startups. I value the straight up advice so much more than the “Wow, that looks awesome.”

That’s why I tell customers on http://www.kickofflabs.com that they need to put up a price as early as possible. Everyone likes an idea when it’s free. But tell them it’s $100 a month and THEN see if they like it.
http://essaychampions.com/ essay writing service

Good!
http://twitter.com/garthwalker Garth Walker

One of my favorite lines from a song by the band Tool: “Fuck smiley glad-hands with hidden agendas”
http://twitter.com/TomLabus Tom Labus

A lot people in business count on being bullshitted and would grind to a halt if anything direct was said to them.

They’re best to avoid but “directness” is the exception to the norm.
http://www.feed.us RacerRick

There are certain people that have to be grinfucked. They don’t listen, so instead of being truthful, I just nod, smile, shake their hand and get hell out of the meeting.
- http://www.feld.com bfeld
  
  Or you could tell them what you think in which case you probably won’t get invited to the next eeting.
http://termpaper-blog.com/ term paper help

wow… cool! Thanks!
abir bhattacharyya

Hey Brad, good post BUT you missed 1 crucial point. Grinfucking wastes time (yours & the person you are grinfucking).
Since time can’t be replenished you are wasting the rarest thingin life. What do you think of my comment? good or obvious & sucks? lol! Abir
Glen

Authenticity, you’re either authentic or a grinfucker.
http://twitter.com/heyehd Eric Darst

reminds me of esquire mag’s reply to particularly bad article submissions they reject… “Fuck you very much”. grinfucking and honesty at the same time! quite the feat…
http://www.twitter.com/rohamg Roham Gharegozlou

Great post. The most frustrating cases of grinfucking are from those who firmly believe they’re doing the right thing by “being positive” or “nice”. Too often healthy debate and reasonable discourse are sacrificed in favor of political correctness, or of not ruffling feathers in the hopes of getting someone’s respect. For me at least the opposite is true – I respect folks who engage me in reasoned criticism.
http://www.pointsandfigures.com pointsnfigures

I LOVE that word. I used to run in an arena with a bunch of traders. even though we competed like hell, our word was our bond. If you screwed someone over, you heard about it or paid for it. In the real world, it’s not that way. I would much rather hear from a person like Brad than someone who was a grinfucker. Lots of them around and I have been hitting some similar themes. One of your best posts.
Anonymous

I am sorry I missed this (and Mark Suster’s post!) when first posted. But you just expressed my philosophy of life. I call it “straight shooting.” but it means exactly the same thing. I often say I suck at lying, so I’ve just embraced truth as my brand, for better and worse. Thanks for writing this.
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Michael Tupper

Great post, Brad. This is one of the most valuable and frustrating lessons I have learned the hard way being an entrepreneur, despite having learned once already by being acclimated to doing business in Latin America, where they don’t know how to say ‘no, thank you’ but rather grinfuck you until you finally box them into a corner and they’re forced to say ‘well, no, but its not because I didn’t want it, its because of circumstances beyond my control’ or some such non-sense.

This has been actually one of the most surprising things about my experience with VCs in that I can’t believe they don’t understand that the most valuable thing an entrepreneur can hear is the truth and the worst (most expensive to starving entrepreneurs who have bet/invested everything they have and then some) is a false promise or pleasantries just for the sake of avoiding a potentially uncomfortable moment. But they should know in all their wisdom and experience that most entrepreneurs already understand that tenacity and persistence are a pre-requisite and we are prepared for mass rejection, so a VC shouldn’t be afraid that it’ll be uncomfortable for us, we’re expecting it.

Besides, if I am en entrepreneur with any hope of succeeding, it you leave me even a faint glimmer of hope (read a grin), I am going to pound on that shred of hope until it materializes into you cutting my company a check or tell me no, cease and desist… and that seems less comfortable for both of us than just saying it straight up in the first place. And I would have appreciated it ten-fold, because you just saved me a ton of time, brain-space, energy and grief.

I can say to the other reader’s that when I pitched Brad and he said pretty quick out of the gates ‘pass, no thanks, and this is why’, sure it was a disappointment, but at the same time it was refreshing and a relief to know nobody wasted any time and energy– and in this short life, that’s critical.
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