Comments on: Mailing List Spam http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html Mon, 22 Mar 2010 05:28:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: RohitK http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html/comment-page-1#comment-12636 RohitK Fri, 15 May 2009 12:08:42 +0000 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html#comment-12636 I will say e-mail marketer are mostly spammer they send msgs every time but i still do not know how they get our email-ids...mostly some idiots send chain msgs mostly and they send to a lot of people in to never they use bcc one and from there companies(spammer got emails and plan <a href="http://toostep.com/trends/basics-e-mail-marketing" target="_blank">email business</a> strategies I will say e-mail marketer are mostly spammer they send msgs every time but i still do not know how they get our email-ids…mostly some idiots send chain msgs mostly and they send to a lot of people in to never they use bcc one and from there companies(spammer got emails and plan email business strategies

]]> By: RohitK http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html/comment-page-1#comment-12635 RohitK Fri, 15 May 2009 12:08:28 +0000 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html#comment-12635 I will say e-mail marketer are mostly spammer they send msgs every time but i still do not know how they get our email-ids...mostly some idiots send chain msgs mostly and they send to a lot of people in to never they use bcc one and from there companies(spammer got emails and plan email marketing strategies I will say e-mail marketer are mostly spammer they send msgs every time but i still do not know how they get our email-ids…mostly some idiots send chain msgs mostly and they send to a lot of people in to never they use bcc one and from there companies(spammer got emails and plan email marketing strategies

]]> By: RohitK http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html/comment-page-1#comment-12634 RohitK Fri, 15 May 2009 12:08:21 +0000 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html#comment-12634 I will say e-mail marketer are mostly spammer they send msgs every time but i still do not know how they get our email-ids...mostly some idiots send chain msgs mostly and they send to a lot of people in to never they usee bcc one and from there companies(spammer got emails and plan email marketing strategies I will say e-mail marketer are mostly spammer they send msgs every time but i still do not know how they get our email-ids…mostly some idiots send chain msgs mostly and they send to a lot of people in to never they usee bcc one and from there companies(spammer got emails and plan email marketing strategies

]]> By: local philanthropist http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html/comment-page-1#comment-10087 local philanthropist Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:58 +0000 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html#comment-10087 " I find this particularly annoying for all the non-profit organizations that I'm involved with. My reaction to getting email spam from them is negative, which I presume is the exact opposite of how they want me to react." "Involved with" and "ACTUALLY HELPING" are two different things. I know you and your buddies do a lot of the former and not a whole lot of the latter. " I find this particularly annoying for all the non-profit organizations that I'm involved with. My reaction to getting email spam from them is negative, which I presume is the exact opposite of how they want me to react."

"Involved with" and "ACTUALLY HELPING" are two different things. I know you and your buddies do a lot of the former and not a whole lot of the latter.

]]> By: Jay_Levitt http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html/comment-page-1#comment-9720 Jay_Levitt Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:57 +0000 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html#comment-9720 Agreed about the "wide range of philosophies". But, as far as I know, there's simply nobody - from major ISPs down to their own customers - who's been able to get them to engage at ALL in dealing with either their outbound spam or their inbound blackholing. I know the anti-spam world; I testified in some of the first lawsuits, wrote some of the code, spoke to the DMA on line 1 and Sanford Wallace on line 2. Postini doesn't engage at different levels; they lock themselves in the bunker. My personal (non-commercial, non-bulk, DKIM-signed) server was being silently blackholed by Postini a while back; my mail didn't even appear in the Postini junk folder. After multiple brush-offs and back-channel escalations, I found out that Postini feeds their spam scores back into their spam scores! If I send five e-mails to Postini clients a day, and one gets mis-tagged as spam, I'm 20% spam. Which is awfully high, so I must be a spammer, so the next day, I'm bumped to 40% spam. And clearly, my spam volume is increasing - just look at the numbers! By the end, I had a 98% spam score - and no way to get off their list. See also "vicious cycle", "begging the question", "Kafka". Agreed about the "wide range of philosophies". But, as far as I know, there's simply nobody – from major ISPs down to their own customers – who's been able to get them to engage at ALL in dealing with either their outbound spam or their inbound blackholing. I know the anti-spam world; I testified in some of the first lawsuits, wrote some of the code, spoke to the DMA on line 1 and Sanford Wallace on line 2. Postini doesn't engage at different levels; they lock themselves in the bunker.

My personal (non-commercial, non-bulk, DKIM-signed) server was being silently blackholed by Postini a while back; my mail didn't even appear in the Postini junk folder. After multiple brush-offs and back-channel escalations, I found out that Postini feeds their spam scores back into their spam scores! If I send five e-mails to Postini clients a day, and one gets mis-tagged as spam, I'm 20% spam. Which is awfully high, so I must be a spammer, so the next day, I'm bumped to 40% spam. And clearly, my spam volume is increasing – just look at the numbers! By the end, I had a 98% spam score – and no way to get off their list.

See also "vicious cycle", "begging the question", "Kafka".

]]> By: bfeld http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html/comment-page-1#comment-9722 bfeld Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:57 +0000 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html#comment-9722 (via email) I have to take exception with your objection to receiving email as a result of giving someone your business card. I have to assume you willingly *gave* the person your card. The card has contact information on it for the purpose of future communication, right? If it has your email address on it, then that implies an invitation to follow up with you by email, doesn't it? So, you opted in to receive at least one email from that person/organization. It's not spam! Now, if their email doesn't comply with CAN-SPAM guidelines requiring an easy and obvious way to remove yourself from receiving future emails, that's a different story. I take issue with using the word "spam" for unwelcome email, particularly by professionals who know the difference. It's not like pornography, it's very clear what is and isn't spam. If you've opted to receive the email, if your Great-aunt Sally sends you yet another joke and you're feeling cranky, that doesn't make it spam! By using "spam" to describe unwelcome email, I think it confuses the issues for the general public, results in a lot of false spam complaints, and makes email marketers' jobs much more difficult. There's lots more to write about this, but I'm out of time! (via email) I have to take exception with your objection to receiving email as a result of giving someone your business card. I have to assume you willingly *gave* the person your card. The card has contact information on it for the purpose of future communication, right? If it has your email address on it, then that implies an invitation to follow up with you by email, doesn't it? So, you opted in to receive at least one email from that person/organization. It's not spam!

Now, if their email doesn't comply with CAN-SPAM guidelines requiring an easy and obvious way to remove yourself from receiving future emails, that's a different story.

I take issue with using the word "spam" for unwelcome email, particularly by professionals who know the difference. It's not like pornography, it's very clear what is and isn't spam. If you've opted to receive the email, if your Great-aunt Sally sends you yet another joke and you're feeling cranky, that doesn't make it spam! By using "spam" to describe unwelcome email, I think it confuses the issues for the general public, results in a lot of false spam complaints, and makes email marketers' jobs much more difficult. There's lots more to write about this, but I'm out of time!

]]> By: bfeld http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html/comment-page-1#comment-9724 bfeld Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:57 +0000 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html#comment-9724 Re: “I know you and your buddies do a lot of the former and not a whole lot of the later.” I invite you to leave your actual name and email address here (rather than be an anonymous “local philanthropist”) so that we can engage in an actual discussion. I presume that your assertion is that whatever activity I take has no real impact. I find that to be completely inconsistent with my experience – both directly in the non-profits that I’ve either served on the boards of as well as the non-profits that Amy and I have contributed to – in terms of the feedback I’ve received as well as the accomplishments of the organizations we’ve supported.<br /> Re: “I know you and your buddies do a lot of the former and not a whole lot of the later.” I invite you to leave your actual name and email address here (rather than be an anonymous “local philanthropist”) so that we can engage in an actual discussion. I presume that your assertion is that whatever activity I take has no real impact. I find that to be completely inconsistent with my experience – both directly in the non-profits that I’ve either served on the boards of as well as the non-profits that Amy and I have contributed to – in terms of the feedback I’ve received as well as the accomplishments of the organizations we’ve supported.

]]> By: bfeld http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html/comment-page-1#comment-9725 bfeld Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:57 +0000 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html#comment-9725 My Postini experience is very different. As a user since 2001, it's been a transformational experience for me. As an investor, we were extremely happy with their performance and the business outcome. And - as someone who has listened to and heard all sides of the spam / anti-spam argument - I've always offered my constructive feedback to the guys at Postini about their various policies and have always found them to have a clear point of view behind their decisions to engage at different levels with the "anti-spam" world (which in my experience has a wide range of philosophies, agendas, and sub-agendas that go well beyond simply providing "email security"). My Postini experience is very different. As a user since 2001, it's been a transformational experience for me. As an investor, we were extremely happy with their performance and the business outcome. And – as someone who has listened to and heard all sides of the spam / anti-spam argument – I've always offered my constructive feedback to the guys at Postini about their various policies and have always found them to have a clear point of view behind their decisions to engage at different levels with the "anti-spam" world (which in my experience has a wide range of philosophies, agendas, and sub-agendas that go well beyond simply providing "email security").

]]> By: bfeld http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html/comment-page-1#comment-9726 bfeld Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:57 +0000 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html#comment-9726 I might be wrong on my assertion about whether or not this violates CAN-SPAM. I thought it did, but I'm double checking. If it doesn't, I guess I'll have to stop giving out business cards! I might be wrong on my assertion about whether or not this violates CAN-SPAM. I thought it did, but I'm double checking. If it doesn't, I guess I'll have to stop giving out business cards!

]]> By: andrew_hyde651 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html/comment-page-1#comment-9731 andrew_hyde651 Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:57 +0000 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html#comment-9731 I tend to create gmail filters that just auto hide mailing lists I want to not receive anymore... works really well! I tend to create gmail filters that just auto hide mailing lists I want to not receive anymore… works really well!

]]> By: bfeld http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html/comment-page-1#comment-9735 bfeld Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:57 +0000 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html#comment-9735 I checked. While it turns out that this doesn't violate CAN-SPAM, it falls in the bucket of "bad email practice." I'll update the post. I checked. While it turns out that this doesn't violate CAN-SPAM, it falls in the bucket of "bad email practice." I'll update the post.

]]> By: Jay_Levitt http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html/comment-page-1#comment-9748 Jay_Levitt Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:57 +0000 http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/11/mailing-list-spam.html#comment-9748 Return Path has indeed done a great job. But I wouldn't be so proud of Postini; they're well-known in the anti-spam world for being both an unapologetic source of outbound spam and an unapologetic blackhole for legitimate inbound mail. They're a great example of misaligned incentives; the more "spam" they block, the bigger their numbers are. Who can argue with numbers? They're also a great example of why you can't assume that computer science solves everything. Algorithms are great, but you need a help desk behind them. Everyone but Google and Postini has one - even Yahoo!, which is legendary for being otherwise unresponsive. Return Path has indeed done a great job. But I wouldn't be so proud of Postini; they're well-known in the anti-spam world for being both an unapologetic source of outbound spam and an unapologetic blackhole for legitimate inbound mail.

They're a great example of misaligned incentives; the more "spam" they block, the bigger their numbers are. Who can argue with numbers?

They're also a great example of why you can't assume that computer science solves everything. Algorithms are great, but you need a help desk behind them. Everyone but Google and Postini has one – even Yahoo!, which is legendary for being otherwise unresponsive.

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