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	<title>Comments on: What Happened To The 4GL?</title>
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		<title>By: Brad Feld</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-11642</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Feld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 13:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-11642</guid>
		<description>Yes, but I was a WEB based application that I can access via a browser from any computer.  Can Access 2007 do that? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but I was a WEB based application that I can access via a browser from any computer.  Can Access 2007 do that?</p>
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		<title>By: James Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-11634</link>
		<dc:creator>James Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 03:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-11634</guid>
		<description>If you hired me to design and code a system for you to track you art collection, I would do the following: 
 
1. I would do the table design in Microsoft SQL Server. I would use a hosting company that for $15 a month will give me access to a WISN (Windows Server, IIS, SQL Server, .Net) software stack, so I did not have to set any of this stuff up. 
 
2. I would write the app in Microsoft Access 2007. I know of no tool that allows one to design fairly sophisticated applications in less time than Access. The main downside is that it does not generate Web pages. I could probably have the system done in 1 to 2 days. 
 
But before you hired me, I would say,&quot;You&#039;re kidding, right? Is your art collection that big that you need a database to track it???&quot; 
 
James Mitchell </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you hired me to design and code a system for you to track you art collection, I would do the following: </p>
<p>1. I would do the table design in Microsoft SQL Server. I would use a hosting company that for $15 a month will give me access to a WISN (Windows Server, IIS, SQL Server, .Net) software stack, so I did not have to set any of this stuff up. </p>
<p>2. I would write the app in Microsoft Access 2007. I know of no tool that allows one to design fairly sophisticated applications in less time than Access. The main downside is that it does not generate Web pages. I could probably have the system done in 1 to 2 days. </p>
<p>But before you hired me, I would say,&quot;You&#039;re kidding, right? Is your art collection that big that you need a database to track it???&quot; </p>
<p>James Mitchell</p>
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		<title>By: zack</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-9986</link>
		<dc:creator>zack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-9986</guid>
		<description>Everything you list in your &#039;wants&#039; sounds like something that Rails could take care of for you if you so desire. I&#039;d recommend checking out scaffolds in Rails, particularly the ActiveScaffold plugin &lt;a href=&quot;http://activescaffold.com/ &quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://activescaffold.com/ &lt;/a&gt;
 
The one thing that can be a pain though is deployment, as there are 99 million ways to setup a rails app in production. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everything you list in your &#039;wants&#039; sounds like something that Rails could take care of for you if you so desire. I&#039;d recommend checking out scaffolds in Rails, particularly the ActiveScaffold plugin <a href="http://activescaffold.com/ " target="_blank"></a><a href="http://activescaffold.com/" rel="nofollow">http://activescaffold.com/</a> </p>
<p>The one thing that can be a pain though is deployment, as there are 99 million ways to setup a rails app in production.</p>
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		<title>By: Caligula</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-9991</link>
		<dc:creator>Caligula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-9991</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised nobody&#039;s mentioned DabbleDB, although its online/etc. model may not match what you&#039;re looking for. 
 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://dabbledb.com/ &quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://dabbledb.com/ &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;m surprised nobody&#039;s mentioned DabbleDB, although its online/etc. model may not match what you&#039;re looking for. </p>
<p><a href="http://dabbledb.com/ " target="_blank"></a><a href="http://dabbledb.com/" rel="nofollow">http://dabbledb.com/</a> </p>
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		<title>By: Tom Gleeson</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-10009</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Gleeson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-10009</guid>
		<description>If you have prior experience of Oracle then you should give Oracle APEX a try (comes with the free Oracle 10g Express edition), very much in the 4GL tradition.  But for lots of open source goodness, Chris Keene&#039;s  WaveMaker would be my choice.    
 
In the non-free category, I&#039;ve heard good reports of the French developed WinDev ( &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.windev.com/). &quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://www.windev.com/). &lt;/a&gt;
 
Tom </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you have prior experience of Oracle then you should give Oracle APEX a try (comes with the free Oracle 10g Express edition), very much in the 4GL tradition.  But for lots of open source goodness, Chris Keene&#039;s  WaveMaker would be my choice.    </p>
<p>In the non-free category, I&#039;ve heard good reports of the French developed WinDev ( <a href="http://www.windev.com/). " target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.windev.com/)" rel="nofollow">http://www.windev.com/)</a>. </p>
<p>Tom</p>
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		<title>By: Brenda Duncan</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-9580</link>
		<dc:creator>Brenda Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-9580</guid>
		<description>May I humbly suggest that you take a look at Servoy? It&#039;s close to the old 4GLs - but powerful enough to run on the desktop AND the web - from one code base. There is a free community edition, so you can try it out. We convert many old &quot;4GL-ers&quot;. We also get lots of comments about how easy it is to deploy. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.servoy.com &quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;www.servoy.com &lt;/a&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May I humbly suggest that you take a look at Servoy? It&#039;s close to the old 4GLs &#8211; but powerful enough to run on the desktop AND the web &#8211; from one code base. There is a free community edition, so you can try it out. We convert many old &quot;4GL-ers&quot;. We also get lots of comments about how easy it is to deploy. <a href="http://www.servoy.com " target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.servoy.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.servoy.com</a> </p>
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		<title>By: bfeld</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-9222</link>
		<dc:creator>bfeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-9222</guid>
		<description>from an email - Sounds like you want a decent web framework. I use Symfony, a PHP framework that Yahoo! wrote &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.delicious.com &quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;www.delicious.com &lt;/a&gt;in, but there are 1000 others. It binds your web forms to objects and auto-implements ORM storage to the database layer by default. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>from an email &#8211; Sounds like you want a decent web framework. I use Symfony, a PHP framework that Yahoo! wrote <a href="http://www.delicious.com " target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.delicious.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.delicious.com</a> in, but there are 1000 others. It binds your web forms to objects and auto-implements ORM storage to the database layer by default.</p>
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		<title>By: ckeene</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-9229</link>
		<dc:creator>ckeene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-9229</guid>
		<description>I had John McCarthy as my undergraduate advisor so I was exposed to Lisp at a very formative age and have never been able to fully expunge it from my system :-))) 
 
I now have Mitchell Kertzman (of PowerBuilder fame) and Roger Sippl (of Informix 4GL fame) on the WaveMaker board, so we have the pedigree part of 4GL down! 
 
You put your finger on the elephant under the table in programming today - it is no longer possible for mere mortals to build basic business applications. 
 
Ten years ago, there were loads of ways to build client/server apps easily - PowerBuilder, MS Access, Lotus Notes, Filemaker. Today, none of those tools have made the leap to web architectures, leaving a huge market vacuum. 
 
It has been so long since there have been decent tools for non-expert developers that people have literally forgotten what a 4GL even looks like. The best proof of this s the many comments on this thread by people who think that coding frameworks like Ruby on Rails and Django are reasonable substitutes for a 4GL. 
 
This is not to slight Rails and Django, just to say that these products are targeting making hard-core developers even more productive. The underserved market here is all us poor pre-OO schmucks who just want to build a simple app without getting a PhD in Python (I prefer wine cellar management apps to art collection management apps but there you go). 
 
Force.com pretty much defined the 4GL in the cloud space, but is of course pretty SalesForce specific. Coghead and Bungee are definitely the leaders in the independent cloud 4GL space. 
 
What is missing is a good open-source IDE for the cloud that uses standard languages like Javascript and Java. Aptana has an interesting story here and WaveMaker will have something to say here soon as well! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had John McCarthy as my undergraduate advisor so I was exposed to Lisp at a very formative age and have never been able to fully expunge it from my system <img src='http://www.feld.com/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> )) </p>
<p>I now have Mitchell Kertzman (of PowerBuilder fame) and Roger Sippl (of Informix 4GL fame) on the WaveMaker board, so we have the pedigree part of 4GL down! </p>
<p>You put your finger on the elephant under the table in programming today &#8211; it is no longer possible for mere mortals to build basic business applications. </p>
<p>Ten years ago, there were loads of ways to build client/server apps easily &#8211; PowerBuilder, MS Access, Lotus Notes, Filemaker. Today, none of those tools have made the leap to web architectures, leaving a huge market vacuum. </p>
<p>It has been so long since there have been decent tools for non-expert developers that people have literally forgotten what a 4GL even looks like. The best proof of this s the many comments on this thread by people who think that coding frameworks like Ruby on Rails and Django are reasonable substitutes for a 4GL. </p>
<p>This is not to slight Rails and Django, just to say that these products are targeting making hard-core developers even more productive. The underserved market here is all us poor pre-OO schmucks who just want to build a simple app without getting a PhD in Python (I prefer wine cellar management apps to art collection management apps but there you go). </p>
<p>Force.com pretty much defined the 4GL in the cloud space, but is of course pretty SalesForce specific. Coghead and Bungee are definitely the leaders in the independent cloud 4GL space. </p>
<p>What is missing is a good open-source IDE for the cloud that uses standard languages like Javascript and Java. Aptana has an interesting story here and WaveMaker will have something to say here soon as well!</p>
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		<title>By: Skifellows</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-9279</link>
		<dc:creator>Skifellows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-9279</guid>
		<description>Ok, so I stopped programming with dBase 4, so this is all very beyond me.  Except, I happen to be helping out with my 20-year B-School reunion, and the development office has set up a table-based web application for us in Quickbase, an Intuit product.  It may be way too simple for what you are looking for, but it does track and report on lists and tables in a pretty slick way... Admittedly, I have not tried to build anything in it, but it doesn&#039;t look all that difficult.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.quickbase.com &quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;www.quickbase.com &lt;/a&gt;will get you there.... </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, so I stopped programming with dBase 4, so this is all very beyond me.  Except, I happen to be helping out with my 20-year B-School reunion, and the development office has set up a table-based web application for us in Quickbase, an Intuit product.  It may be way too simple for what you are looking for, but it does track and report on lists and tables in a pretty slick way&#8230; Admittedly, I have not tried to build anything in it, but it doesn&#039;t look all that difficult.  <a href="http://www.quickbase.com " target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.quickbase.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.quickbase.com</a> will get you there&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Eugenio</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-9298</link>
		<dc:creator>Eugenio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-9298</guid>
		<description>May be you can give a try to GeneXus X (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.genexus.com) &quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;www.genexus.com) &lt;/a&gt;. GeneXus is a knowledge-based software development tool, mainly oriented to enterprise-class applications for the web and Windows platforms. The developer specifies his applications in a high-level (mostly declarative) fashion, from which native code is generated for multiple environments. 
 
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May be you can give a try to GeneXus X (<a href="http://www.genexus.com) " target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.genexus.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.genexus.com</a>) . GeneXus is a knowledge-based software development tool, mainly oriented to enterprise-class applications for the web and Windows platforms. The developer specifies his applications in a high-level (mostly declarative) fashion, from which native code is generated for multiple environments.</p>
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		<title>By: icloud Beta Team</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-9302</link>
		<dc:creator>icloud Beta Team</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-9302</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://icloud.com &quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://icloud.com &lt;/a&gt;(a Cloud OS and 4GL development tool combined) has a visual application designer for UIs and programs logic using a process oriented XML language, based on steps and events. It is designed for visual orchestration, very much like drawing a business process. 
 
icloud have been designed to be a rapid web-based 4GL development tool, where the database is provided as a virtual file system, capable of storing documents, binaries and generating meta data as Atom feeds. Instead of a table, use a folder, instead of creating a row in the table; create a document. Indexing and fast retrieval is provided by icloud. Think of it as a Lotus Notes, but were applications are described in XML and the database is a repository. 
 
At the core of icloud is an XML Virtual Machine, executing the applications directly on the client, without doing any server round-trips. This improves the responsiveness of &quot;web&quot; applications in icloud. Applications look and much more like desktop software. 
 
We are working on icloud&#8217;s virtual machine for more devices than the web browser. This means that any application written for icloud will work online, and elsewhere... 
 
icloud Beta Team </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://icloud.com " target="_blank"></a><a href="http://icloud.com" rel="nofollow">http://icloud.com</a> (a Cloud OS and 4GL development tool combined) has a visual application designer for UIs and programs logic using a process oriented XML language, based on steps and events. It is designed for visual orchestration, very much like drawing a business process. </p>
<p>icloud have been designed to be a rapid web-based 4GL development tool, where the database is provided as a virtual file system, capable of storing documents, binaries and generating meta data as Atom feeds. Instead of a table, use a folder, instead of creating a row in the table; create a document. Indexing and fast retrieval is provided by icloud. Think of it as a Lotus Notes, but were applications are described in XML and the database is a repository. </p>
<p>At the core of icloud is an XML Virtual Machine, executing the applications directly on the client, without doing any server round-trips. This improves the responsiveness of &quot;web&quot; applications in icloud. Applications look and much more like desktop software. </p>
<p>We are working on icloud&rsquo;s virtual machine for more devices than the web browser. This means that any application written for icloud will work online, and elsewhere&#8230; </p>
<p>icloud Beta Team</p>
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		<title>By: Taylor Hughes</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-9135</link>
		<dc:creator>Taylor Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-9135</guid>
		<description>I had a similar GAE experience: I decided to rebuild my blog using App Engine to take it for a spin and quickly discovered it was not the right platform for that sort of thing. It&#039;s a powerful platform for building scalable multiuser web apps, but it is certainly not the best tool for putting together something simple quickly. From the description of what you want, it sounds like ASP.NET, with Visual Studio&#039;s help, would probably suit your needs -- although the suggestion is probably heresy. :) </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a similar GAE experience: I decided to rebuild my blog using App Engine to take it for a spin and quickly discovered it was not the right platform for that sort of thing. It&#039;s a powerful platform for building scalable multiuser web apps, but it is certainly not the best tool for putting together something simple quickly. From the description of what you want, it sounds like ASP.NET, with Visual Studio&#039;s help, would probably suit your needs &#8212; although the suggestion is probably heresy. <img src='http://www.feld.com/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: zack</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-9136</link>
		<dc:creator>zack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-9136</guid>
		<description>Additionally, you could check out Django&#039;s admin site &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.djangobook.com/en/beta/chapter06/ &quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://www.djangobook.com/en/beta/chapter06/ &lt;/a&gt;as it might also take care of most of your needs. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Additionally, you could check out Django&#039;s admin site <a href="http://www.djangobook.com/en/beta/chapter06/ " target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.djangobook.com/en/beta/chapter06/" rel="nofollow">http://www.djangobook.com/en/beta/chapter06/</a> as it might also take care of most of your needs.</p>
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		<title>By: John Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-9139</link>
		<dc:creator>John Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-9139</guid>
		<description>I am not a programmer, but built my site on the OS php app Drupal (drupal.org) .  There are many clever plugins, but for customizing the items (nodes in Drupal) use CCK and Views.  Drupal 5 is fairly deep and stable.  Drupal 6 is up and coming (cck and views for 6 are still in beta).  My site has screens that are less intuitive because I am not a programmer, but I could rebuild it in minutes if my server and backups were nuked. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not a programmer, but built my site on the OS php app Drupal (drupal.org) .  There are many clever plugins, but for customizing the items (nodes in Drupal) use CCK and Views.  Drupal 5 is fairly deep and stable.  Drupal 6 is up and coming (cck and views for 6 are still in beta).  My site has screens that are less intuitive because I am not a programmer, but I could rebuild it in minutes if my server and backups were nuked.</p>
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		<title>By: bfeld</title>
		<link>http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html/comment-page-1#comment-9142</link>
		<dc:creator>bfeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/2008/09/what-happened-to-the-4gl.html#comment-9142</guid>
		<description>It&#039;d take me a full day just to download and configure all the .NET tools that I&#039;d need.  Oops - no eye rolling ... </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#039;d take me a full day just to download and configure all the .NET tools that I&#039;d need.  Oops &#8211; no eye rolling &#8230;</p>
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