Why Don’t We Make Learning A Computer Language A Requirement In High School?

I spent this weekend at LindzonPalooza. Once a year Howard Lindzon gets together a bunch of his friends at the intersection of financing, tech, media, and entrepreneurship, we descend on The Del in Coronada, and have an awesome 48 hours together. Many interesting and stimulating things were said, but one I remember was from Peter Pham over dinner. It was a simple line, “why do we teach languages in junior high and high school but not a computer language?” that had profound meaning to me.

When I was in high school, I had to take two years of a foreign language. I had three choices – French, Spanish, or German. I didn’t really want to learn any of them so I opted for French. I hated it – rote memorization and endless tedious classes where I didn’t really understand anything. Fortunately I liked my teacher for the first two years and I did fine academically (I got an A) and ended up taking a third year of French.

Year three was a total disaster. I hated the teacher and apparently she hated me. We watched these stupid reel-to-reel movies of french cartoons aimed at English speakers trying to learn French. Beyond being boring, they were incomprehensible, at least to me. Somehow I ended up in the front row and it was my job to change the movie when it finished. One day, when I was sure the teacher was out of the room and I was changing the reel, I muttered ” tu es une chienne” (one of the few French phrases I still remember, along with “va te faire foutre.”) I was wrong – she was in the room and, after a trip to the principal’s office (the principal liked me and let me off easy) I dropped the class and took a study hall instead.

Now, before I use the old line of “I have a hard time learning languages”, I’ll call bullshit on myself since during that time I learned BASIC, Pascal, and 6502 Assembler. I was good at learning languages – I was just way more interested in computer languages than romantic european languages.

We didn’t have AP Computer Science at my school so I taught all of this to myself. But today, schools have computer science courses. And, based on what I’ve learned from my work at NCWIT, looking at course curriculums, and talking to a lot of students, most high school computer science courses suck. Part of the problem is the word “science” – they teach computer science theory, how to program in Java, math, logical, and a bunch of other things. But they don’t teach you software development, which is much more useful, and a lot more fun.

When I compare it to French 3, I wanted to learn conversation French. I probably would have enjoyed that. But the teacher, who was French, insisted on grinding us through endless grammar exercises. The movies were sort of conversational, but they obsessed over the different tenses, and we were tested endlessly on when to use tu and when to use vous, even in French 3.

I’m not a language instructor, nor do I have any interest in figuring out the best way to teach a language – computer or otherwise – but it seems to me that we are shifting into a different period where learning how to write software is just as important – and probably more so – to a high school student as learning to speak French, at least at a two year of course level where all you remember are a few swear words.

Am I wrong? If so why. BTW – Google translate quickly tells me that is “Ai-je tort? Si oui, pourquoi.” My bable fish is on order.

  • SBhushan

    My 6 year old nephew drew me an elaborate house (a favourite at this age!). As I marveled at it, I said “Let’s try something, how about your write down how you drew this house?”
    “But why? ” he asked with curious frown.
    “So your little brother and sister can read it and draw the same house”.
    He took 10 minutes and wrote down 15 lines on the exact steps he took. ..Draw a square. Put a triangle on top. Make another rectangle, with a square inside. Shade the triangle..
    you get the picture.
    Man did he get a kick out of writing his first full page and his first algorithm, he went around the house reading the page over and over and over again till his mom looked at me and said “What have you created??”

    • So cool. You are a great uncle.

  • We did have mandatory CS courses in high school, along with the french/spanish language requirement (that was back in ’98). However, the kids in class knew far more about coding than the teacher did, which would lead to lots of fun situations such as changing the root passwd periodically on his machine. I fully agree that programming should be a requirement, but finding qualified CS teachers for high school level might be more challenging than one would think.

    • Oh – I expect this is an incredibly challenging part of it. It’s been mentioned in a few other comments – one of the biggest inhibitors is lack of qualified teachers, lack of appropriate compensation for teachers, and lack of motivation for teachers.

  • We’re in a terrible bind. On the one hand we desperately need development talent, and the need is stretching outside the software industry. On the other, the need is so great, supply so short, and salaries high enough that nobody is willing to take a relatively poor teaching salary to teach it to those who need to learn it.

    I’m beginning to think the only way out the the jam is to bolster self education. I was thoroughly impressed at a recent Finish Weekend event in Boston with what two unrelated college freshman were able to do with Ruby and Rails with only 9 weeks, and 4 weeks experience respectively. Then, recently at a BarCamp event in Albany NY, many of the folks who came to my JavaScript session had learned the language only recently at http://www.codecademy.com

    Some will argue that “oh, they’re not really learning the language, only superficially repeating the steps” with Rails, jQuery, or Codecademy. Well, if it is enough to get them addicted, then that’s all it will take. Even if an entrepreneur or manager never becomes a “real” developer, they will be able to create much more value just by speaking the language.

    With today’s high level frameworks, developer self education is easier than ever. Let’s leverage that as a gateway drug. Building things is addictive.

    NYT article: http://nyti.ms/GXk6hH

    • Yes yes yes. The key is not to learn the syntax of Ruby, or Python, or Java, but to build stuff and get the joy out of creating things from scratch, especially those that you invent in your mind.

      • Yeah language syntax will come as an afterthought. I imagine that is true of any technical discipline. The excitement of building what we imaging, making it real, making something from nothing, is powerful enough to overcome technical hurdles.

  • As someone who has been self-taught computer science, and school-taught spanish language (I AM fluent) I’d have to say that, where, in-school, you usually get out of it, what you put into it, I had an opportunity to take a computer language course (which is nothing to a real computer science course) and found the process totally shallow, and no matter how much I put into it, I could never have gotten so much out.

    What I did do, however, was, in my Senior Year, I took a C++ class at the community college as part of my high-school credit; It was taught by the dean of the computer science department of the college.  Now that was worthwhile.  I still drop in on ‘Doug’ whenever I get stuck, and he still has so much to give.

    Conversely, all mandatory computer science classes will do is create a whole group of people who hate what they might have considered beforehand.  There’s nothing like trying to force somebody to learn arcana.Frankly, there are too many people who want to take college back to high school; As a community we would do better to contribute to most high-school students finishing, and being qualified, informed adults.

    • Hmm – I struggle with this. I was an extremely good student in high school. My computer science courses sucked. My language courses (French 1 / 2) were fine – it was just very hard and uninteresting to me. I worked hard at 1 and 2 – and then bailed when I had the option and no longer cared. But I had to learn computer programming on my own. I would have benefited from a good class when I was 14.

      • Sorry for the old reply, Just caught it via Disqus notifications on a different site:

        TLDR; mandatory in high-school is the wrong approach, inclusion in the community is the right approach.

        I’m not saying that having the class available to high-school age students is the wrong move.  I learned a ton of software then.  Electives cost schools extra, need to be staffed by qualified instructors, and, usually, don’t have the difficulty of something as math-heavy as computer science.

        I think we might do better to just try to include high-school students in some of the professional development opportunities that already exist in, for example, the boulder ruby community and the Northern Colorado python community.  The fact is, when it comes to computer science, there’s not really a difference between a 20-something business person and a 14yo.  It’s a matter of including them, and tolerating the maturity gap.  I think we can do that.

  • Rongotaketake

    This is a brilliant idea !!!

  • Between ninth and tenth grades of high school my parents from Ohio to South Florida. The only really good thing to come out of that was my new high school offered CS classes. Before that I dabbled on my own but having three years of CS, including AP and skipping other classes to write code, set me on the path I am today.

    Given that, I don’t think CS should be a requirement. Instead I think learning a programming language should be an option along with French, German, Spanish, etc. just like you ( and I) weren’t made to learn French or Spanish, I would really hate to see kids with no interest or capacity for learning JS clogging up the limited school computers. I would have been much better served having CS qualify as my language credit then Spanish.

  • Really like this post and felt inspired to write one based on this, hope you don’t mind if I link it from here. http://qx.defectron.com/post/21211851900/why-we-all-should-be-coding-by-now

    • Links are always welcome.

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  • This resonates — I had a similar experience in high school. But your point about schools not teaching software dev is a bullseye (how many universities even teach real dev?). I can imagine a class where the teacher is more like a producer or product manager and students are mostly teaching themselves as a means to an end (where the fun is!), a bit like an incubator and/or accelerator. Add mentors from the local community and/or via video and you’ve got something. Picture a world where a class like that is typical at most high schools (and colleges). It might put the focus on development instead of academic CS BS as we sort of know it now (problematic on so many levels), and that could be huge.

    • Think of all the local “mentors” – real software developers in the community – that would engage with this. Parents would totally dig this. It would be an incredible way to engage the community in the education of the next generation.

  • DaveJ

    The income impediment – that the same teacher who could teach software development to students could be making three times as much writing code – is a huge problem.  But an even bigger problem is that people who want to do it on the side, or as a second career or semi-retired career, have to get a mind-numbing education degree and the powers-that-be in education oppose non-“teacher” subject matter experts from helping.  I have had several friends tell me they attempted to volunteer like this and get turned away. 

    • ^— what Dave said.  Spot on.

    • Yes – this is a huge fuck up in our current education – especially public education – system.



      • panterosa,

        Which is why teaching is broken, and we get a ‘cheaper education’. It sucks that ‘we’ value teachers that way, and simultaneously are valuing young minds that way. #beyondstupid

  • Off topic, but speaking of the difficulty of languages and our need of the mythical babel fish, check out this startup creating precisely that: http://babelverse.com 
    (disclaimer: I’m co-founder 😉

  • It’s funny, back in the fall, I was at a conference in DC called the future of entrepreneurship education and someone on a panel said the same exact thing.  It was the ONE thing that stuck with me since the conference.  Makes total sense.  Why not have, French, Spanish, Ruby?

  • Bill

    High school cirriculum has always been relevant to getting into college, not teaching you anything vocational.  I can’t graduate from high school after taking basic French and Biology 1A and expect to get a job at a hospital assisting in surgery.  High school also doesn’t teach you life skills like managing your finances, basic legal and contract understanding, or how to really give a presentation.  College is the same way, with little focus on training you to do a job and more focused on making students able to think critically.

    The concern becomes when there are enough jobs of a certain type that pay over a certain amount, then it turns into a crisis that we’re not starting as early as possible with vocational training.  I recall this happening with demand for nurses, video game animators, and html coders in the last 20 years.  But does the world want people who can think or people who know how to program a specific language, who may eventually have the same fate as manufacturing floor workers when the computers learn to program themselves.

    Ok, enough theory, here’s some options:
    – Fund a 2 year accelerator school for specific subject areas starting in 10th grade with low tuition that can be paid off with project work and a completion bonus.
    – Convice the Army to add after school programming courses in exchange for 1-2 years of service after high school and seed funding (instead of a college scholarship)

    • It feels like vocational schools have drifted far from their original purpose and impact. MIT started off as a vocational school for engineers. I remember shop class from junior high school in the late 1970’s. While we had a computer lab, it was desolate compared to the shop room. Today, each feel like they aren’t getting what they should.

      Hopefully the rise of maker spaces will rejuvinate shop class (or at least vocational education). FIRST Robotics has helped with one segment, but it seems the demographic is skewed to the “smart kids” / nerds. Mainstream vocational learning, especially around computer and software development, seems like it would be powerful in high school.

  • I think you make a great point but I would defend the teaching of a second human language in addition to a computer language.  Learning a second human language allows the student to form abstract conclusions about language, learn something about the nature of human languages and gain an understanding of the arbitrary conventions in his/her first language.

    Learning a computer language teaches the student something about highly structured, logical thinking and abstract rules about the way machines operate.

    Both are excellent things for students to learn.  I would agree that the importance of the second has grown and continues to grow.

  • I love you Brad Feld, but I have to ask if you were wearing your geeky leather jacket and water skiing when you wrote this. 😉

    • Possibly. Or at least my skull shoes and my studded belt.

  • btabke

    I like the idea of teaching kids the ‘logical nature of programming’. I think just knowing programming helped me to live a better life up to this point. All actions in life boil down to simple IF – THEN – ELSE statements.

    That said, I think it would be very short sighted to favor one language over another. We are headed in the era of ‘drag-n-drop’ programming where languages no longer hold meaning. Todays languages are not suited for tomorrows world.  Hey – I should know – I am an expert level 6502 programmer. http://www.defence-force.org/computing/oric/coding/annexe_2/

    Need any 8bit code written? 

    Think about that the next time you whip out that little PHP code or shell script and think high schoolers should learn it…

    Batch files anyone? Bueller, Bueller, Bueller?

    • I look forward to just telling the machines what we want to do. I remember in the 1980’s when we were going to use graphical 4GLs for everything. Somewhere along the way the web showed up and that went out the window, at least for the last 20 years.

  • DJ

    It’s an interesting thought, but I think it’s a false comparison. Computer languages are a set of instructions rather than a conversation, they are not spoken aloud, and they provide instant feedback when you do something wrong (bad output or compile failure). Further, a big piece of programming in my experience is just algebra.  Easy for you & me, perhaps, but not for the typical English major.

    And in our cases it helps that all the statements are English (if/then/else, do/while). Chinese programmers do not have this luxury.

    In my personal experience I’ve found that I am quick to learn the syntax of a foreign language (conjugation, possessives), but much slower at the vocabulary. Vocabulary only grows through spoken repetition, ideally with a partner. At least with programming you can copy/paste and work alone.

    • Very true. I found the opposite though with languages – I was miserable with the syntax but got the vocabulary pretty quickly. I remember getting good grades on the memorize words thing and blowing up badly on the write sentences thing. This just reinforces – at least in my mind – that there are many different styles for learning / strengths for different people.

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  • Just had that discussion the other day. I absolutely agree that kids need to learn some basic programming. I wish someone had forced me to do it. After all, you learn languages in school because they are needed to understand the world and open up your mind. Programming is a fundamental part of our world today, so gaining a basic understanding of that is absolutely crucial. The objective is not to turn everyone into a geek. Programming shouldn’t replace learning a language though. Both have their place in education. The key, as with all other subjects, is to teach it in an interesting way. If you have a good math teacher, you’ll love maths. If you have a good french teacher, tu vas aimer le Francais. Same for programming.

    • I agree – I think a foreign language is important in this context as well. Conceptually, I was being provocative, but the serious comment is why not let either be the requirement, or maybe both.




  • First of all, as someone who speaks french natively, I’m very impressed by what you have remembered in french- these are handy essentials.

    For that learning wish to be achieved, I think we need to invent a new programming language that’s easier to learn by the masses, but at the same time, one that’s useful. BASIC is easy to learn, but useless. RUBY on the opposite end is very efficient, but demands an advanced level of programming abstracts understanding.

    Someone will invent that new language as a universal programming language, almost like Latin is. If you know Latin, you can easily learn french, italian, etc. Why isn’t there an equivalent thing in programming? There are so many programming languages and they are so diverse. I don’t buy anymore that each language has a purpose because these were excuses when hardware was very different than it is today. Why do we abandon a language when it’s too complex or not powerful enough and switch to a new one, instead of fixing or extending the old one?

    A plus tard les amis.

    • panterosa,

      I completely agree on the Latin comparison. I took Latin in my 6th year of French, and went on to Spanish and Italian. 8 years to fluency in French, 2 years in Spanish, 6months in Italian. The root system expresses across similarities in each so that the variations are the focus of the new language.

  • I think the benefits of learning a foreign language go beyond the words we may or may not remember 10 years later, it’s more about how it trains our brain to think differently, how we have to actively think about how to express ourselves, and how it makes it easier to understand a different culture.

    As I wrote in a recent blog post – http://edudemic.com/2012/04/why-googles-eric-schmidt-is-wrong-all-students-should-not-take-computer-classes/ – the benefits of programming go beyond knowing any particular language (especially since they keep changing!). All students should learn the beauty of being able to think like a programmer, using tools like Scratch and Game maker, without having to get stuck on the nitty gritty of any particular high level language like Ruby. Those who want to, will continue on to higher level languages, and I firmly believe that if more students are eased into the beauty of programming, more of them will elect to go on to more formal CS classes.

  • I do agree with the this idea, it will be great, but at the same time how many years will take to implement it worldwide.
    Regarding the fact that you like a teacher and don’t like other, here is what i’m preparing emotionalprofile.com

  • narikannan

    Completely agree on the need to make a computer language a requirement in school. However kids who dont like programming or have the “programming switch on” may not find it an atrractive proposition and may hate it even more than you hated french! I also agree with the need to come up with a new language like Basic that motivates kids better – It’s time for someone to come up with a modern version of LOGO – something that combines the simplicity of LOGO language but modernized for today’s computers – SmartPhones and Tablets! Kids will be much more motivated to learn a language with which they can do fun things to show their peers! Cool things they can do with location, the accelerometer or social media!

    • Hackety-Hack is like Ruby + a Turtle. Geared for kids.  Also, check out Scratch and Ruby4Kids.

    • Hackety-Hack is like Ruby + a Turtle. Geared for kids.  Also, check out Scratch and Ruby4Kids.

  • Jim Vitek

    You touched on a ‘hot button’ of mine Brad.  I have two kids of high school age in the public school system of a major university town (with a top engineering school), and have been working with them the last few weeks to schedule their classes for next year.  While their are 2 computer science classes offered, they are not required, only offered to juniors/seniors, and are largely neglected in a sea of 10 art, 18 music, 7 performing arts, & 36 world language classes offered at the school.  I’m not trying to say that these other areas are unimportant/invaluable… just saying that when it’s hard to find the programming classes in the book it sends the wrong message on the relative value of subjects.  Fortunately I am a developer/entrepreneur so my kids are very familiar with how fun, challenging, and potentially rewarding programming can be.  However, the other kids in the school are not helped by the skewed perception, and many of them end up choosing culturally-enlightened yet jobless fields to study.  I have started trying to work with the district on this, but am struggling to convince them that there is a problem.

    The CSTA has a great assessment of the state of computer science education in this country here: http://www.acm.org/runningonempty/

    They also have a well thought through model curriculum for K-12 compsci education here: http://csta.acm.org/Curriculum/sub/CurrResources.html

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  • Had a few hours this morning and added some eye candy JavaScript for anyone learning how to use JavaScript.  Would hope this is motivational, happy to help with questions anytime.

  • @BenBuie

    That is spot on. Thanks for posting, I think the way you phrased the title has some real power and, if promoted, could really make a difference for the future of Tech in America. 

  • panterosa,

    I’d love to see coding along side languages in schools. I know nothing about code except I haven’t time to learn it. My kid will though – she’s 10 in private school.

    I studied 3 romance languages to fluency and Latin. I work in the visual field and often find my role is as translator. To me speaking a language, verbal or visual, is about translating ideas, expressing ideas. Perhaps if coding could manage to be perceived in more of that vein it would encourage more people who are untechnical, for lack of a better word, to learn to express ideas and translate concepts like structural thinking. Syntax and vocabulary are structures and building blocks to express ideas and concepts. I wonder how much this has to do with spacial proficiency.

  • panterosa,

    I’d love to see coding along side languages in schools. I know nothing about code except I haven’t time to learn it. My kid will though – she’s 10 in private school.

    I studied 3 romance languages to fluency and Latin. I work in the visual field and often find my role is as translator. To me speaking a language, verbal or visual, is about translating ideas, expressing ideas. Perhaps if coding could manage to be perceived in more of that vein it would encourage more people who are untechnical, for lack of a better word, to learn to express ideas and translate concepts like structural thinking. Syntax and vocabulary are structures and building blocks to express ideas and concepts. I wonder how much this has to do with spacial proficiency.

  • Cool post.  But I think the learning should start long before high school. 🙂 

     Neurobiologists have known for at least a decade that the brain physically organizes language centers differently in “true” (before age 6) vs. “late” (after age 12) bilinguals. (The 6-12 yr period can go either way.)   I wonder a lot if the same is true for understanding the semantic structures of programming.  I mean the Computer Science stuff – abstraction, recursion, etc. A lot of people who try to pick that stuff up for the first time in college have a very difficult time with it.  

      My high school also didn’t have AP Computer Science, though I don’t think the curriculum (as I’ve heard it) sucks at all.  It prepares you for a college CS degree program, which is the point.  My CS degree program was mostly math.  Should that change?  I don’t really think so, personally; that stuff is really important for becoming a good engineer.  But there are a lot of tools out there now for becoming a good *hacker*  (Codecademy, TreeHouse, Course Hero, etc etc)…for kids who are interested, the material is out there and free.  It’d be great to see schools teach two parallel tracks, one for people who want to really get into the guts of it, and another for people who want to build a website.

    But either way, since we’re entering an age when everyone should have some familiarity with coding, having elementary school kids start on Codecademy or Ruby4Kids just makes sense – it should happen in schools, of course, but computers cost money and that’s a very real hardship for many districts.

    • That’s a great point Renee. Days after writing an article on the topic inspired by this one I feel as if your point should be emphasized. This whole mindset of programming, skill-set or whatever we call it, does fit best early, before the age of 6. 

  • There goes nothing…U. of Florida Eliminates Computer Science Department, Increases Athletic Budgets. Forbes http://onforb.es/JjpChc

  • Michael Rausch

    HA even learning programming or something would be nice in our computer science, its been 3 months and we are still learning how to plug in a mouse, yet at home since i was 13 (i am nearly 16 now) i have been teaching myself (with the help of the internet) how to build and repair computers and more advanced programming. looking at the course and what other students are doing it looks like the most advanced we are going is scratch

  • Hey there,

    I am fortunate to have a nice three months of solid learning time ahead of me. I really want to beef up on my technical chops (have worked a little over a year on the biz side of startups and VC).  Any suggestions for what and how I should learn?

    I basically want to be able to “get” the tech pieces and concepts behind future startups proposal and to hold my own in a conversation.  
    I am looking for something beyond codeacademy or coursera.


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