Learning To Program

I had lunch today with Nate Abbott and Natty Zola, the co-founders of Everlater, a TechStars 2009 company.  Nate and Natty are two of my favorites – not only because they regularly kick my partner Seth Levine’s ass on bike rides but also because they starred in last year’s TechStars The Founders video series.

Today, while enjoying a veggie burger at Mustard’s Last Stand, we talked about how Nate and Natty learned to program.  When they came up with the idea for Everlater, they were both young finance geeks on wall street.  Nate was a math major; Natty was a econ major, but neither had a clue how to build a web app.  They decided that rather than find a “developer” to team up with, they would learn how to program.

I regularly get asked questions (via email, face to face, and this blog) by non-technical entrepreneurs how they should get started if they don’t have a technical co-founder.  There are a variety of answers – one is “learn to program.”  In Nate and Natty’s case it’s worked out great and their story is an instructive one.  So we’ve decided to work on a series of blog posts together about their story of how they learned to program, the resources they used, decisions they made, struggles they had, and beer they drank (well – maybe not the beer). 

Now, both Nate and Natty are smart, which is obviously a pre-requisite.  But neither were computer science majors, nor were they “hackers” (although apparently Nate is pretty good at a wide range of video games.) 

Look for some posts over the next few weeks on this topic.  Of course, like any of the series I’ve written, your feedback matters a lot to how much I keep it going.  If you decide that the story is great and/or helpful, tell us and we’ll keep it going.  If not, we won’t. 

  • Really looking forward to the posts as I am starting to learn! Thanks Brad.

  • Super – thx!

  • Thanks for doing this. I'm really looking forward to the series.

  • I starting learning how to program about 4 months ago, built two sites. Im really pumped about this blog series Brad! Thanks for doing it.

  • I'm REALLY looking forward to this series! I'm forever griping to my programming partners/buddies that it's rude to speak a different language in front of me… 🙂 Being able to do some of the simple things will help me to better communicate w/ those who REALLY know what they're doing!

  • David L

    I'm really excited for this. I'm a finance guy but really wish that I'd studied CS or CE (undergrad business degrees are largely useless). This is a quandary that I've often wondered about but never taken the initiative to act on–so I'm happy that I will have the change to learn from someone else's experience first.

  • This would be great (and helpful!). I'm kind of in the same boat and would like to see how their methods compare to mine.


  • David L

    change = chance

  • My interest is peaked for your future posts. (no CO pun intended) Wondering if they learned a specific language, database, or learned how to configure a CMS or all the above? I live with a constant internal struggle I call, "My desire to remain an 'advanced user/code editor' or make the jump and becoming a 'programmer.' Maybe your posts will shed some light on my plight (HA! that rhymes) Maybe I should hang up this technical thing and become a poet. (no) /CW

  • Transferred to a new university.

    Went to a party with my teammates the first night.

    Met @spinosa (my technical cofounder for @homefield) and that was it. I couldn't ask for a better partner, technical or otherwise.

  • Great post Brad. I talked about something similar the other week. At thredUP we have taught a number of formerly non-technical people the basics of coding in a ruby on rails environment. Among other things, the idea was to get more eyes on the product, more collaboration and better leverage of existing "soft" skills. It's worked out great for us. http://butisntitjust.com/5-reasons-your-startup-s

  • looking forward to it! "find a developer" has been my mantra until now but i'm finally committed to get my hands dirty!

  • awesome. I'd love to hear how they went from A-B, primarily what was the process for picking out which languages to learn, and how heavy they rely on their own decisions in changes to the build in areas like security and scalability.

    This will be particularly useful to younger folks (HS/College) looking to specialize/prepare for future opportunities. Looking forward to it

  • Thanks Brad. This is a great topic and lots of respect for Nate and Natty. I'm going through the same process and wrote about it here:http://www.gordonzhu.com/2010/03/learning-how-to-… Am looking forward to the rest of the series!

  • Brad, a definite critical need here and looking forward to it! Most startup teams tend to be technical or Biz, not both — unless you're part of a seasoned startup team that continues to work together, which leaves the rest of the startup scene. (The SBA cites 30% startup failures due to unbalanced teams alone).

    For the rest, techs tend to build it and then try backing into a market, and the biz approach is to validate (and even pre-sell it) with the challenge of scrambling to figure out how the heck to find a tech partner to build it. Sometimes a Pass, likely more often a Fail. Your posts will have great value for both.

  • looking forward to the thread

  • Love this idea. These posts will hopefully also be helpful for people who may have learned to program on one stack (e.g. .Net) but need to ramp up on a new one (e.g. LAMP).

  • Great idea for a series! I'm in complete support of it. I graduated last summer with a useless econ degree. I was made quite aware of that fact and began quickly learning to program for the web. I'm now made more money building websites since graduation than I have with my 4-year honors econ degree. However, I'm still in the heavy learning phase and would like to read what the guys have to say.

  • I'm really excited to follow these stories and incorporate them into my own learning practices. This year, I hit a point where not having technical programming skills is no longer an option for my goals. I already feel a relation to these guys as a bus/econ major with project management graduate classes and a breadth of professional experience in finance and accounting. Thanks for putting this together!

  • activeus

    where will these blogs be…..?

  • very interested to read this series as for me this seems to be the biggest obstacle for most would-be internet entrepreneurs.

  • Andrew

    YES! Exactly the issue I'm dealing with right now. Have started teaching myself how to program for the exact same reason as Nate/Natty and this would be super useful. Thanks!

  • To echo the above comments, I'm very excited for this series. I came out of Harvard Undergrad last spring with a degree in Social Anthropology, a keen interest in entrepreneurship (spent my summer at Kauffman Fndn in KC) and an idea for a business. Ideas without the ability to implement = zilch I found but I actually wound up finding a pretty good team of lawyers to do our legal and guy to build out the primordial alpha.

    The programming bug bit me because I had all of these ideas as to how to make the site better, more usable more (insert bizdev buzzword here), etc but absolutely 0 legs to make it happen. I had typical biz-dev syndrome where I asked for a rocketship to be made out of a box of cereal and a ball of rubber bands. After meeting with a co-founder of Yipit and hearing how he picked up programming, I was inspired. I started learning HTML and CSS (www.w3schools.com is by far the best teacher for HTML, CSS, PHP and Javascript but you need to open up a doc and tinker, get a feel for layout, it becomes important later). From there, I picked up PHP, and most recently Javascript. Right now I'm working through the libraries (jQuery and Prototype) as well as AJAX integration to make it sexy.

    I shared my little story not to sound cool, because as my little brother says, I am a complete "n00b." Rather, I wanted to share some of the pitfalls of tackling a large project like building a multi-faceted web-app alone(ish) with no skills.

    1) Site Structuring: I picked up the site structure from the primordial alpha and was lucky to do so. Building out simple things like login checks, effective page layout over several similar pages and the flow of the site is a bit more difficult than it seems. Before jumping in, build out a wire frame with the user experience in mind. Knitting together a bunch of pages into a cohesive unit is complicated.

    2) Building for Scale: If you haven't though out the end game or at least the direction you think you're heading in…do that. If you build out some heavy duty PHP functionality and its closed ended (non-modular) then you will be scrod. It's best to build things into code chunks and modules so you can unplug the latest iteration and plug in your new-fangled functionality. If you have to gut the code every time you will be very very sad.

    3) Phone a Friend for Database Construction: Another "doh" is figuring out the database structure without knowing where you're going with your app. You can do all of the fancy zoom in, fade out, fizzle then pop you want on the front end but if the pipes cant handle the data coming in or out effectively, you will have a garbage static site.

    4) Learn Points 1-3 before attempting to hire any 3rd World programmers: Yes, they are very cheap. But they also will only do EXACTLY what you ask them to do. No more, possibly less. And it will be very ugly at first. The key to winning on outsourcing websites (www.elance.com ,http://www.odesk.com ) is to have your idea broken down into at least wire frames, at most, pseudocode. If you need your idea to be fleshed out, hire a consultant or a premier firm and expect to pay top dollar.

    5) Programming is Not the End: Sadly, as I've found out…programming is just the beginning. Once you have the functionality working, you then have to either learn or pay someone to design it from psd–>HTML.

    All of that said, learning to program over the past few months has been one of the most satisfying things I've ever done. There will be late nights, a ton of coffee and a few gray hairs but when the wee hours roll around and that last semicolon is in the right place, you will feel incredible. It is definitely worth the struggle.

    Brad, thanks for offering Nate and Natty's insight. I'm excited to learn from their path and hopefully step my game up a few notches.

    • Fantastic example. It sounds like you have travelled an awesome path.
      I hope you continue to comment on Nate and Natty's story!

  • Wow…this series sounds awesome Brad. I am actually kinda going through something like this now…so this series of posts could NOT be more timely.

  • Brad – Like many of the others commenting before me, I'm looking forward to this series. I was a computer geek for a short while some time ago, left it behind me for a while, and am now diving head first into learning to program again. Thanks!

  • Brad,

    As everyone else here has mentioned, GREAT IDEA. I have lots of friends that are programmers, but don't do any coding myself. I've tried several times to learn Rails, but haven't gotten anything to stick yet. I have to explain to most people that I'm like a high school Spanish student. I understand the gist of what programmers are talking about, but don't expect me to be able to speak it intelligently, and I don't have a clue how to write it.

  • sdgsg

  • My background is CEO/sales but I just spent two and a half years learning to program. It is the best investment I have made in 20 years of business.

    Not only has it proven to be enormously rewarding (both financially and personally), the level of understanding that I now have re time budgets and phasing of features enables me to better understand developers – and sift out the truth-tellers from the folsk simply looking to amp their monthly billings.

    Invaluable. Fun. Useful. Massive ROI.

  • Thanks for pursuing this. Not only will the content be great, but it’ll be good to hear more fro

  • As an engineer turned biz dev guy who forgot his programming skills along the way, I am really looking forward to this series.

  • Really looking forward to the series. As a computer science student who is working on a side-project, it would be interesting to see how they got from 'no coding knowledge' -> 'can code' -> 'live startup' -> 'keeping startup alive and add features'

  • Entrepreneurs need to get their hands dirty. This is a great idea for a series of posts. I'll be interested to see the path they took (just start building vs studying up some first, specific skills vs fundamentals, etc.)

    Also, remember this series of posts could be very beneficial to non-entrepreneurs. Programming computers is a core skill for everyone now!

  • Scott Dalferes

    As a software sales guy that, unfortunately, does not know how to program I look forward to reading your posts over the next few weeks on this topic. I am sure you will motivate me further to FINALLY learn the basics of programming so I can at least have relatively intelligent conversation with the Programmers, Developer, Product Managers, Sales Engineers not to mention the The CEO (who is a superstar coder) here at my company.

  • I am really looking forward to this series of posts. Thank you for examining this subject with a real world example.

  • I'll be the conventional voice for once: do you really want non-CS students to start coding? Sure, they can put together some ugly php code. But is that really the best use of their time? I may be old-fashioned but I think it takes a long time to learn good coding practices.

    On the other hand, I have no problem advising technical founders to pick up basic business skills on their own. So maybe I'm just showing my biases here.

    • Jeremy Dowdall

      It does take a long time to learn good coding practices, but building a prototype isn't the same as building and maintaining a production app – it's more of a learning experience. Putting an idea into code (or clay, or brass, etc.) will reveal unforeseen pitfalls and options like no project plan could dream of. If non-cs founders are able to take the time to do this, they will surely learn more about their idea, and have a much better understanding of who they need to hire when it is time to bring in the experts.

  • I’m totally comfortable with non-CS students coding.  I went to MIT, did NOT major in Course 6, and have written my share of really good code (and plenty of bad code).  I also know a lot of CS majors from various places (including some tier 1 CS schools) who sucked as developers.  I think you have to be smart, disciplined, and have a logical mind to be effective at writing software.  But you don’t need a CS degree.

  • @alain94040 I couldn't fundamentally agree with you more. However realistically, I have been 'over a barrel' chasing down several developers for isnazz, and still am. I've literally sold the solution and raised (tentative) angel funding, but yet, no deliverable to show because of that damn barrel. Until I get my prototype, it’s a no-go.

    So, send me a developer who is interested in significant equity because they match my skills in biz with code/tech, is reliable and talented, and I’ll start agreeing with you wholeheartedly. 🙂

  • Matt

    Really looking forward to this! I came of out banking and have been getting my ass kicked picking up programming in the heat of battle. This should be good!

  • Thanks Brad for the right thought at right time. As the co-founder of a tech startup I often collide with this thought "Should I learn programming ?". I have always delayed this decision because of indecision and other priorities. I have learnt to design but not a coding master yet. May be I'll get inspired to code after reading the upcoming series.

    Looking forward to it.

  • Great topic, Brad. Kudos. Looking forward to the follow-on posts.

  • Greg Mollenkopf

    This sounds like a great idea for a series of posts. I've been programming for a loooong time, and I think one thing that "old hand" programmers lose track of is "How do you learn to program TODAY?"

    From what I've read so far, the new hands are starting where the action is: the web and learning from there. Let's call this top -> down. Web (HTML/CSS) to PHP to Database and on down the stack.

    It's interesting because due to when I learned to program, I've had to learn all this in the opposite order. I think my first program pushed my name onto a TI-99 screen, from there to pixel pushing, flat files, and on up the stack as the stack was invented. So : bottom -> up.

    It should be interesting. Thanks for doing it.

  • This is an awesome post that tackles a VERY real problem.

    Working in an early stage fund, I see WAY TO MANY founders (or complete teams) that have no clue how to implement their vision and that will rely exclusively on HIRED programmers or, way worse, OUTSOURCED development.

    I majored in Computer Engineering, had quite a lot programming courses, but feel I didn't learn anything useful there. The major learning part happened at home when I was trying to build the stuff I wanted.

    I started fixing sites and scripts in PHP and then moved on to learn Ruby on Rails. Being able to craft your vision into a tangible prototype gives you an awesome feeling, and it's a great starting point for a full fledged development process.

    I would prefer 10 times a philosophy major that spent all his evenings learning how to code than a CS major that isn't curious enough to dig down into something and understand how it works.

    DO NOT CONSTANTLY TRY TO FIND A TECH COFOUNDER. Every founder should be technical, the difference should be in personality, passion and prior experience with a good balace of coding, marketing and operations.

  • Brad, I have enjoyed your blog for a long time, but thank you for this post!!! I am an MBA student here on the East Coast (w/family out in the Boulder area) with a background in finance and no CS. However, it is the tech/entrepreneurial/VC world that is most exciting for me and what I am deeply involved in here in the NYC area. I plan to work in those fields for the remainder of my career, including this summer, part-time next year and post MBA. Recently, I made it a goal of mine to learn CS as much as I can while I am a student and beyond–will be a valuable skill to have. So, your post is very timely for me–can't wait to begin my training. Also, thank you to everyone else who provided invaluable information through your comments, including Evan.

    Looking forward to future reading!

  • I work with Nate & Natty and can say that it's 100% possible for 2 guys with no programming knowledge to go from 0 to full scale ruby on rails web app in 18 months. The irony is that I actually have a CS degree, and felt that very little of what I did in school had practical applications in the real world (perhaps because it was a liberal arts school, or perhaps because we only built small pieces of things…and never entire applications with many working parts). Though it was 10 years ago, so take that with a grain of salt.

    Perhaps the degree was helpful knowing the theory, but that probably only amounts to about 10% of what I need to know on a daily basis. And for my final semi-anti degree comment…think back to where web development was 4 years ago, and then realize that four years is a LONG time to be in school. What you are coding in as a freshman probably won't be around in four years.

    To sum it up, people who are math/engineering minded can learn to code without a formal education. My resume after college was just a list of languages I used in class, and I didn't code outside of schoolwork, so I had no interesting projects to hitch my name to.

    Oh and Brad, there is an error in your post. It should read: "Nate is pretty good at a wide range of *geeky board games*".

  • Anonymous

    *cough* Charlie O'Keefe *cough* wrote all of their original code base and held their hands as they learned how to steal credit. Sad that this is still how they act, and what's publicized.

    • This is Charlie O'Keefe. Yes, I worked with everlater in the early stages. No, I did not write "all of their original code base". I give the whole everlater team a lot of credit for how much they learned and how far they've come.

      • Thanks for the comment Charlie. From the beginning we've had many great people involved with Everlater, its what you do when building a company. Charlie was a big help and mentor in the early days as we learned how to program.

        I'm sad someone thinks we've ever stolen credit and has this impression of us. If anyone would like to discuss more I can be reached at natty [at] everlater [dot] com.

  • Truth – this is totally possible. My buddy and I – math and econ majors ourselves – coded a non-trivial Rails app with no prior programming experience.

    That said, I want to remind all of the "non-technical" people that are getting ready to buy "rails for dummies" to think before you click – just because you CAN DIY doesn't mean you SHOULD. We wasted three months learning how to program only to learn that our business wasn't feasible in the first place. We go so caught up in the technical feat (programming can be dangerously addicting) that we didn't iron out the critical business/organizational details. Not lean at all.

    I think that our society often makes a false dichotomy between numbers people and non-numbers people. I blame our education system for not finding better ways to teach math (rote memorization is SO late millennium), but that is another discussion. In reality, quantitative aptitude falls along a spectrum like any other skill set (social grace, writing, creativity). Think about how many coders there are- how could they all be "geniuses"?

  • Wes

    Hey I think that this topic sounds extremely interesting. I myself have been faced with this seemingly endless dilema of being an entrepreneur at heart with lots of ideas, and no real coding talent to speak of. I finally got sick of trying to convince developers to take a chance, and just last week got a job as a web developer on campus where I go to school. The road ahead of me is undoubtedly long, but I am determined to do it. There are just way too many opportunities out there for the taking to leave it all up to some half way committed 9-5 developer. I am looking forward to your future posts!

  • This will be *sickly* useful. Can't wait to hear about you guys learning to code (I'm in a similar situation but digging in my heels) – also, I'll never forget the two of you calming me down pre Boulder Ignite 7. What kind of chick gets up in rain boots and talks healthcare?! You've got a friend for life. Let me know if you guys ever need a place to crash in the Bay area. Beer's on me this time.

  • Ken Glanton

    I agree with everyone else I have worthless degrees and zero skills. I really want to learn to program but it is honestly extremly confusing to even know where to start- should I use Ruby, Python, etc- which books should I use……etc. So I am really looking foward to this series.

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  • I really don't know why more people aren't considering this an option. As an entrepreneur, you should be wearing a bunch of different hats anyways. I was a science major in college, picked up php by myself over a matter of 3-4 months. Its entirely possible.

  • This would be great (and helpful!). I'm kind of in the same boat and would like to see how their methods compare to mine.

  • I'm very interested in this series of posts Brad. Per your posts several months back about programming languages for teaching kids to program, I'm planning to learn how to program an iPhone/iPad app – so that I can hopefully build some type of dinosaur-themed app with my 6-year old son and resident dinosaur expert.

    Keeping in mind, I haven't written a line of code since 1983 when I wrote a program in Basic for my science fair exhibit – you would input two parents respective blood types and the program would spit out the percentages of what the child's blood type would be. Lots of IF-THEN statements.

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  • SDR

    Just ran across this series of posts…so so timely…learn how to program is on my "next actions" GTD list so this is great!

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  • Joel C

    this is just what the world needs… more non-programmers trying to "program". Maybe the "professionals" are in the field for a reason?

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